Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (May 11, 2020)
Notice of meeting
43rd Parliament, 1st Session
Meeting 11
Monday, May 11, 2020, 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.
Webcast
Videoconference
Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic
2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.
Appearing
- Hon. Diane Lebouthillier, P.C., M.P., Minister of National Revenue
Witnesses
- Canada Revenue Agency
- Bob Hamilton, Commissioner of Revenue
- Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch
- Geoff Trueman, Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch
- Ted Gallivan, Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch
3:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.
Appearing
- Hon. Carla Qualtrough, P.C., M.P., Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion
Witnesses
- Department of Employment and Social Development
- Graham Flack, Deputy Minister
- Benoît Robidoux, Associate Deputy Minister
- Mark Perlman, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Assistant Deputy Minister
- Service Canada
- Cliff C. Groen, Acting Chief Operating Officer
Clerk of the Committee
Paul Cardegna (613-995-9469)
2020-05-08 4:04 p.m.
Minister’s Opening Remarks
Speech for Diane Lebouthillier, Minister of National Revenue
Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates
Ottawa, Ontario
May 11, 2020
Check against delivery.
Hello. Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, and parliamentary colleagues.
Thank you for this invitation to tell you about the work of the Canada Revenue Agency in supporting Canadians during this unprecedented time. The study you are undertaking on the measures implemented by the Government to support Canadians in response to the COVID-19 pandemic is very important. I would like to thank you for your attention in this matter because this pandemic severely affects all Canadians.
I am pleased to be accompanied today by the Commissioner of the Canada Revenue Agency, Bob Hamilton, and three members of the Agency’s senior management: Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch; Geoff Trueman, Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch; and Ted Gallivan, Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch.
Since 2015, my two mandates as Minister of National Revenue have included improving the service delivery that is offered to Canadians. This means the Agency and I place Canadians at the centre of all our priorities.
Concerned with continuous improvement, we are working toward reshaping our service model by considering Canadians not as mere taxpayers, but as important clients.
We recently launched our People First philosophy and it is the pillar of our new service model.
This philosophy, which is widely disseminated within the organization, is certainly one of the key elements of the Agency's current response to the implementation of the Canadian government's economic emergency measures to deal with this difficult period.
Encouraged by this philosophy, all Agency employees have been working hard for almost two months to support Canadians during the COVID-19 pandemic. Everyone works with compassion in a spirit of cooperation. And innovation is in the spotlight.
In addition to an impressive mobilization of human resources in the field—whether employees, government partners, or service providers—we are also seeing a significant increase in the technology that is being deployed on a day-to-day basis to serve Canadians in an even more accessible, efficient and rapid manner.
Chronologically, allow me to give you an overview of the Agency's work over the past eight weeks.
The Agency started by realigning its efforts in order to be more efficient during this crisis.
Then, on March 18, it announced that it was pushing back the tax return filing deadline for individuals, corporations and trusts, thereby relieving Canadians of one less burden. For example, in the case of individuals, the filing of tax returns has been pushed to June 1, and payment for the 2019 tax year has been pushed to September 1, 2020. In the same momentum, the Agency also announced the temporary suspension of the vast majority of audits.
Subsequently, the Agency diligently and quickly implemented the Canadian government's various economic measures. First and foremost: the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, or the CERB.
As you undoubtedly know, the Agency is responsible for a significant portion of the administration of the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, the CERB, and we are fully responsible for administering the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, the CEWS, as well as the Canada Emergency Student Benefit, the CESB.
However, it is my colleague, Minister Qualtrough, who was responsible for establishing the eligibility criteria for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit and the Canada Emergency Student Benefit. I am sure that she will be happy to answer your questions regarding the eligibility criteria for the CERB and the CESB.
Regarding the CERB and the CEWS, I am particularly proud to see how quick and easy the application process is for Canadians. And I must emphasize that the amounts are paid promptly. In fact, most people can fill out the application in less than two minutes and receive their payment by direct deposit within three business days—sometimes even within two days!
We have also demonstrated significant technological capacity, which is very impressive when you consider the online services were set up in just a few weeks. When the CERB was launched, the Agency’s system registered 30,000 applications in 12 minutes.
During the busiest periods of the first week, the Agency processed nearly 1,000 transactions per minute, every minute, for two days, for 18 hours a day! That is unprecedented. Since April 6, the Agency has reviewed and processed nearly 7.5 million CERB applications, for more than 4.45 million unique individuals. And we are proud of the Agency’s incredible work in the circumstances. In fact, the media described the technological implementation of the CERB as a “small miracle.”
This miracle would have been impossible without the exceptional cooperation between the Agency’s public servants and those from Employment and Social Development Canada.
While we are on the subject of the CERB, it is also worthwhile to note that the third period of applications begins today. We are confident that everything will go as planned.
Then, on April 27, the Agency deployed a new economic measure, namely, the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, the CEWS. Again, everyone pitched in to make that application process a success. After a week, more than 97,000 businesses had taken advantage of this emergency measure.
Finally, the Agency will soon be able to launch the Canada Emergency Student Benefit, the CESB. Students will soon be able to submit their application through the Agency portal and the My Account service.
In addition to these emergency measures, it should also be noted that the Canadian government has enhanced the Canada Child Benefit and the GST/HST credit, thereby giving an additional boost to support Canadians during COVID-19. However, these measures are also implemented by the Agency.
On April 9, 2020, the Government of Canada issued a special single GST/HST credit payment of $5.1 billion to 11.8 million Canadians because of the COVID-19 pandemic. This was the largest socio-economic payment ever made to Canadians. Individuals who benefited from this measure received close to $400 on average for single people and nearly $600 for couples.
In addition, on May 20, 2020, to help families during this difficult period, the Government of Canada will issue 3.7 million additional Canada Child Benefit lump sum payments totalling $2 billion.
This measure will be delivered at the same time as the regular benefit payment scheduled for May 2020 and will provide up to $300 per child. This means that the beneficiary families will receive close to $550 on average.
As you might imagine, deploying such measures obviously involves a great deal of work, both upstream and downstream. The Agency designed websites for each of the government's economic measures to inform and guide Canadians regarding the various steps to follow.
It was able to mobilize a lot of people in a heartbeat, starting with its call centre agents. For this purpose, the Agency’s phone service has been migrated to a virtual platform, and wait times are manageable. To keep up the pace, the Agency also reassigned many employees to new duties. A total of 7,500 employees answered a call to lend a hand to the call centres.
The Agency also continued to provide high-quality information, namely through organizing and participating in several media briefings while relying on its collaborative and proactive approach.
The Agency is also very grateful for the help provided by its partners and service providers. These include Employment and Social Development Canada, Shared Services Canada, and the Department of Finance, which is also the authority for eligibility for the CBWS.
We must also highlight the work of some 20 financial institutions; among other things, they facilitated direct deposits into their clients' bank accounts.
Of course, while all this work took place, the CRA also made sure that appropriate compliance measures were put in place for all applications for emergency financial assistance. Ensuring compliance is an essential part of the Agency’s mission. We are committed to preserving the integrity of our Canadian tax system.
Therefore, the Agency has developed strict auditing measures—electronic and manual—and even several safeguards regarding claimant eligibility, refund terms, and even tax loopholes. You can rest assured that offenders will face severe consequences, up to and including imprisonment.
Mr. Chair, this pandemic continues to have a terrible impact on many of our fellow citizens—not only on their health, but also on their economic well-being. However, I am proud of the efficiency with which the entire government has mobilized in recent weeks to support Canadians.
I am extremely proud to have seen the extent to which Agency employees were able to prove beyond any doubt that the Agency is definitely at Canadians' service and that it puts Canadians first.
As the old saying goes, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." I can honestly tell you that Agency employees have proven that they are very tough.
With those good words, I thank you.
Minister’s Opening Remarks
Speech for Diane Lebouthillier, Minister of National Revenue
Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates
Ottawa, Ontario
May 11, 2020
Check against delivery.
Hello Mr. Chair,
Thank you for this invitation to tell you about the work of the Canada Revenue Agency in supporting Canadians during this unprecedented time. The work you are undertaking on government measures to support Canadians in response to the COVID-19 pandemic is very important.
I am pleased to be accompanied today by the Commissioner of the Canada Revenue Agency, Bob Hamilton, and three members of the Agency's senior management:
Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch;
Geoff Trueman, Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch;
and Ted Gallivan, Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch.
Since 2015, I have focussed on improving the service delivery that is offered to Canadians. This means the Agency and I place Canadians at the centre of all our priorities.
We recently launched our People First philosophy and it is the pillar of our new service model. This philosophy is a key element in the Agency's response to implementing the emergency economic measures.
Driven by the People First philosophy, Agency employees have been working hard to support Canadians during the COVID-19 pandemic.
In addition to taking part in an impressive mobilization of human resources in the field, we are also seeing a significant increase in the technology being used every day to serve Canadians in an even more accessible, efficient and rapid manner.
Allow me to give you an overview of the CRA's work over the past eight weeks.
The Agency started by realigning its efforts in order to be more efficient during this crisis. Then, on March 18, it announced it was pushing back the tax filing deadline for individuals, corporations and trusts, thereby relieving Canadians of that burden. In the same spirit, the Agency also announced the temporary suspension of the vast majority of audits.
The Agency then worked quickly to implement the government's various economic measures. First and foremost: the Canada Emergency Response Benefit.
As I am sure you know, the Agency is responsible for a significant part of administering the CERB, and the CRA is fully responsible for administering the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, as well as the Canada Emergency Student Benefit.
Regarding the CERB and the CEWS, I am especially proud of how quick and easy the application process is for Canadians. And I must emphasize that the amounts are paid promptly. In fact, most people receive their payment by direct deposit within three business days—sometimes even two days!
We have also demonstrated significant technological capacity, which is very impressive when you consider the online services were set up in just a few weeks. When the CERB was launched, the Agency's system registered 30,000 applications in 12 minutes.
Since April 6, the Agency has reviewed and processed nearly 7.5 million CERB applications, for more than 4.45 million unique individuals. I am very proud of the Agency's incredible work under these circumstances. In fact, the media described the technological implementation of the CERB as a "small miracle."
This miracle would have been impossible without the exceptional cooperation between the Agency's public servants and those from Employment and Social Development Canada.
On April 27, the Agency deployed a new economic measure, namely, the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. Again, everyone pitched in to make this application process a success.
Finally, the Agency will soon be able to launch the Canada Emergency Student Benefit, the CESB. Students will soon be able to submit their application through the Agency portal and the My Account service.
The CRA was able to mobilize a lot of people quickly, starting with the agents at its call centres. For this purpose, the Agency's phone service has been migrated to a virtual platform, and wait times are manageable. To keep up the pace, the Agency also reassigned many employees to new duties. A total of 7,500 employees answered a call to lend a hand to the call centres.
Of course, while all this work took place, the CRA also made sure that appropriate compliance measures were put in place for all applications for emergency financial assistance. Ensuring compliance is an essential part of the Agency's mission. We are committed to preserving the integrity of our Canadian tax system.
In this regard, the Agency developed strict auditing measures—electronic and manual—and several safeguards for claimant eligibility, refund terms, and even tax loopholes. You can rest assured that offenders will face severe consequences, up to and including imprisonment.
Mr. Chair, this pandemic continues to have a terrible impact on many of our fellow citizens—not only on their health, but also on their economic well-being. However, I am proud of the efficiency with which the entire government has mobilized in recent weeks to support Canadians.
As the saying goes, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." I can proudly tell you that Agency employees have shown that they are, indeed, very tough.
I am now ready to take your questions.
Thank you.
Minister's Placemat
Minister of National Revenue appearance before OGGO - May 11, 2020
COVID-19 Support (General)/People First
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The CRA is responsible for administering the CERB jointly with ESDC. The Agency also administers the CEWS and will administer the CESB. My colleague, Minister Qualtrough (ESDC) can answer questions about CESB and CERB eligibility, and the department of Finance is the authority on CEWS eligibility.
Since I became Minister of National Revenue, I have been committed to ensuring the CRA is an organization that is fair, trusted and helpful by putting people first. Over the past years, the CRA has been changing to better serve Canadians, culminating in the announcement of a Chief Services Officer and the launch of a new People First approach to guide the CRA's efforts to better serve Canadians. Little did we know then that the CRA would soon be called upon to deliver critical programs to support Canadians during the pandemic.
For the past 8 weeks, the CRA has been delivering key measures in the Government's Economic Response Plan to support Canadians, including:
The Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB), a taxable benefit of $2,000 every 4 weeks for up to 16 weeks to eligible workers who have lost their income due to COVID-19
The Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS), to support employers that are hardest hit by the pandemic, and protect the jobs Canadians depend on.
The Canada emergency Student Benefit (CESB), to provide support to students and new graduates who are not eligible for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, Employment Insurance or are unable to find work due to COVID-19.
And deferral of the tax filing due date; increasing the Child Care Benefit (CCB) and a one-time special GST credit payment, the biggest one-time payment ever, and Deferred payment date for individuals and businesses until after September 1, 2020 , for payment of any income tax amounts that become owing on or after March 18 and before September 2020.
Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) Roll-Out
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) developed a CERB application process that was quick and easy to use. As a result, many Canadians received payments days after applying. Soon after applications opened, on April 6, the CRA was processing a thousand transactions per minute.
The CRA partnered with financial institutions to make it possible for Canadians to register for direct deposit with the CRA through their bank portals.
Since April 6, the CRA has processed more than 7.5 million applications for the CERB.
The third period of CERB applications opens today.
The CRA will be verifying that individuals are eligible to receive the benefit. In cases where claimants are found to be
ineligible, they will be contacted to make arrangements to repay any applicable amounts.
As part of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, the CRA will be comparing employers' payroll records with information provided by CERB claimants to ensure that individuals who have returned to work and who have therefore become ineligible for the CERB repay those amounts.
Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) Roll-Out
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) allows employers to keep and re-hire workers amidst the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
The CEWS is a subsidy available for a period of twelve weeks from March 15, 2020 to June 6, 2020, that will provide a subsidy of 75% of eligible remuneration, paid by an eligible employer that qualifies, to each eligible employee—up to a maximum of $847 per week.
Employers may be able to claim the wage subsidy for one or more of the following claim periods:
- the period that begins on March 15, 2020 and ends on April 11, 2020;
- the period that begins on April 12, 2020 and ends on May 9, 2020; and
- the period that begins on May 10, 2020 and ends on June 6, 2020.
Employers may apply for the CEWS up to December 2020. CRA's application portal opened on April 27. Since then, over 125K businesses have applied and $3.10 billion has been paid. This represents over 1.5 million employees whose wages will be supported by CEWS.
Period 2 of the CEWS will cover April 12 to May 9. Applications will be open May 13. Businesses must submit a separate application for each CEWS claim period.
The CRA has actively engaged small, medium and large businesses as well as charitable organizations. As of May 7, the CRA led 5 Q&A sessions and has partnered with stakeholders to run 9 additional events as of May 7. Three more of these sessions are planned for this week.
The CRA has also published a number of resources to help Canadian businesses understand how to apply and take advantage of this fiscal measure.
The CRA again partnered with financial institutions to make it possible for employers to register business payroll accounts for direct deposit with the CRA through their bank portals.
Legislation allows for providing the names of businesses approved to receive the CEWS. The Government is currently considering how to best provide Canadians with this data. More information on this will be provided shortly.
Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB) Roll-Out
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The Government of Canada is providing an economic response to the COVID-19 global crisis including $9 billion to support post-secondary students and recent graduates.
Included in this framework, the Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB), provides financial support to recent graduates and post-secondary students who are unable to find employment due to COVID-19, and who are not eligible for either the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) or Employment Insurance (EI). The CRA will also administer this benefit.
This benefit will provide $1,250 per month for eligible students or $2,000 per month for eligible students who have disabilities or dependents.
Applications will open late in May. The CESB is available for a maximum of 16 weeks from May 10 until August 29, 2020.
To deliver an efficient service experience, the CRA is ready to offer the same fast and easy application process that has delivered CERB payments to millions of Canadians.
The CESB represents an investment of $5.2 billion and is expected to reach approximately one million students.
Since the CESB is taxable, individuals will receive T4A slips on the amount of CESB they received in 2020.
CRA Capacity
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The CRA delivers benefits payments to millions of Canadians and business owners every year; this is at the core of our business.
Since the launch of CERB on April 6, 2020 there have been over 25million logins to the My Account portal, representing an increase of over 200% compared to logins for the same period last year.
Since the launch of CEWS on April 27, 2020 there have been over 41000 logins to My Business Account portal, representing an increase of over 150% compared to logins observed for same period last year.
The CRA also launched Charlie the Chatbot on March 27, 2020. Since its launch, Charlie has answered over 1.69 million questions and has had over 509,000 conversations with visitors on Canada.ca.
In April 2020, 1,124,311 individuals registered to the My Account portal, representing an increase of over 300% compared to registrations for the same period last year.
We are evolving our call centre services to better serve Canadians over the phone. The CRA has successfully transferred almost all of our call agents to remote work. This has allowed the CRA to return to the full capacity of agents serving Canadians. We have over 3,000 regular call centre agents serving Canadians and Canadian businesses.
In addition to our regular call centre employees, after a call out by the Commissioner to CRA employees, over 7,500 volunteered to answer questions about the subsidies. A total of 4,000 of these temporary call agents have been trained, equipped, and are providing support to Canadians that have general questions about the CERB, CESB, and CEWS.
We have kept our call centres open longer in order for Canadians to get the information they need.
The CRA is balancing the health and safety of all its employees, whether in processing centres or call centres, while maintaining service to Canadians. We have equipped most of our call centre agents with the tools they need to work from home. The CRA is balancing the health and safety of all its employees while maintaining service to Canadians.
Refunds related to electronically filed returns may be received in as little as 8 business days. While we are currently processing paper returns, some Canadians can expect delays due to the reduction in on-site staff.
For those taxpayers who have already filed a 2019 tax year paper return that has not been processed yet, the CRA will allow these taxpayers the option to also file their 2019 return electronically. This temporary measure that started April 20, 2020, was put into place to help circumvent any paper return processing delays.
The CRA understands that this measure will not address every situation as not all taxpayers will be able to file their returns electronically. For this reason, every effort is being made to focus on paper return processing while respecting public health authorities' guidelines.
CERB Repayment/CEWS Interplay
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
The Government of Canada's priority has been to get money to those who urgently need it now. With this in mind, the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) developed a CERB application process that was quick and easy to use. As a result, many Canadians received payments days after applying.
The third eligibility period for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) will open today. This four-week period covers May 10 – June 6, 2020.
As a result of some parts of the country slowly allowing more businesses to reopen, and the successful launch of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, more and more Canadians will be returning to work in the coming weeks. As such, the CRA encourages all applicants to carefully consider these changing conditions before they apply for the third eligibility period.
Canadians are required to repay the CERB if they no longer meet the eligibility requirements for the 4-week period in question. This could happen if an individual earns employment or self-employment income greater than $1000 earlier than expected.
Since the CERB is taxable, individuals will receive T4A slips on the amount of CERB they received in 2020. If an individual repays the CERB, the CRA will not issue a T4A slip for the amount that was repaid by December 31, 2020. The CRA is encouraging individuals to repay these amounts by December 31, 2020.
Beginning today, the CRA is offering a convenient way to repay the CERB with a few simple clicks using My Account. You can also repay the CERB by mailing a cheque or money order to the CRA. If you still have the original CERB cheque you can return the it by mail.
Added CERB/CEWS Integrity
Redirect: Commissioner/Ted Gallivan/Frank Vermaeten
The Government's priority has been to provide the Canada Emergency Benefit (CERB) to those in urgent need. With this in mind, the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) developed a CERB application process that is quick and easy to use.
CERB
The CERB application process is similar to tax return processing in that it is attestation-based at the time the application is made.
As with other benefits administered by the CRA, we will undertake verification activities at a later date.
The CRA has records of who received the CERB, and for what period, from both the CRA and Service Canada. These will be used, along with tax slips received from employers, to validate eligibility.
In cases where claimants are found to be ineligible, they will be contacted to make arrangements to repay any applicable amounts. These amounts do not carry any penalties or interest but will need to be paid back.
The CRA has added more detailed information on our CERB web page to explain to Canadians why they may need to return or repay the CERB and how to do so.
CEWS
The government is taking unprecedented steps in order to support businesses and employees who are affected by COVID-19. We will ensure that anyone who tries to get around the rules, will be exposed to significant consequences.
Businesses that seek to engage in aggressive tax planning to exploit the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program and engage in fraudulent activity, can expect the Agency to apply a full range of compliance measures.
Journalism
Redirect: Commissioner/Geoff Trueman
The establishment of the independent Advisory Board on March 25, 2020, and the legislative changes that were proposed on April 17, 2020, puts the CRA in a position where it can begin to deliver on the Government's commitment to provide much needed support to journalism organizations.
Prior to those announcements, the CRA released technical guidance and the application form in December 2019 and has received 97 applications to date. Work commenced on reviewing those applications, albeit at a reduced capacity given the constraints imposed by the pandemic.
The CRA is working with the independent Advisory Board and is looking forward to this work extending to requesting and receiving its recommendations on whether an organization meets certain criteria required for designation.
The CRA is also currently in the process of updating its technical guidance and other products to make information available to journalism organizations.
Journalism organizations are encouraged to apply for the journalism measures by submitting their documents to the "My Business Account" portal during the COVID-19 pandemic, to help facilitate the receipt and review of their materials given current constraints on resources.
CVITP/Vulnerable Populations
Redirect: Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
Canadians have told us that they want in-person support when trying to do their taxes and get their benefits. While we can't meet them face-to-face during this time, we're hoping that working with a volunteer online will be the next best thing.
To continue to serve the vulnerable populations, the CRA is working with community organizations to host free virtual clinics, on an interim basis to help Canadians that rely on this service, for both the Community Volunteer Income Tax Program (CVITP) and the Income Tax Assistance – Volunteer Program in Quebec.
As phase 1 of our approach, the clinics will also provide an opportunity to create awareness of the importance of filing taxes in order to receive benefits and credits such as those related to COVID-19.
As part of additional phases of this work, we continue to work with partner organizations to explore other ways to serve the vulnerable populations.
The CRA is also working with other government organizations and with CRA outreach officers to develop communications material for vulnerable populations such as indigenous communities.
Administrative Costs of COVID-19 Support Activities
Redirect: Commissioner
The financial impact of the COVID-19 crisis on the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) will be significant given its central role in the implementation of many of the Federal Government's initiatives in response to this crisis as well as the pressure to ensure the least amount of disruption possible to its operations which, at the time, was approaching the peak of the 2019 Tax filling season.
The Treasury Board Secretariat (TBS) has asked all government departments and agencies, including the CRA, to track and report on costs associated with the management of the COVID-19 crisis.
To date, the CRA's efforts have been dedicated to ensuring the COVID-19 measures are well developed and implemented.
Costs are being tracked in the CRA systems both for the purchase of equipment and the time spent by employees.
Privacy
Redirect: Commissioner
Privacy management is the cornerstone of the CRA's normal business and a critical component of the Canada Revenue Agency's (CRA) Business Continuity Plan.
We are firmly committed to preserving the confidentiality and privacy of Canadian's personal information, while we continue to ensure that the CRA supports Canadians during this time.
The CRA has heightened awareness to ensure employees continue to protect Canadian's personal information when working virtually.
In keeping with the CRA's recently published Privacy Management Framework, the implementation of all COVIDrelated benefit programs has complied with the Privacy Act and have considered the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada's (OPC)Framework for assessing initiatives in crisis situations.
The CRA has taken a proactive approach and briefed the OPC before each benefit was implemented.
Tax Evasion and Avoidance
Redirect: Commissioner/Ted Gallivan
The CRA has recently improved its compliance activities, operationally achieving over 91% of its cumulative $5.1B target for 2021-2022, three years ahead of schedule. The positive results were achieved by:
- targeting the highest risk taxpayers nationally;
- risk-assessing 100% of all large business corporate tax returns on a yearly basis;
- better identifying high-risk transactions;
- using third party data such as Electronic Fund Transfers, Common Reporting Standard, Country-by-Country Reporting, and leaks; and
- collaborating with partner countries through international organizations.
Strategically, this CRA crackdown on tax avoidance has brought hundreds of tax issues to the courts. These cases provide a roadmap; each year this government has introduced legislative changes to close loopholes and I look forward to both this government and this parliament continuing to identify areas of priority.
We have made investment of $1B and in addition, the Government has given the CRA the resources it needs in order to do it's work and we are starting to see results.
I have created an expert advisory panel which is giving us recommendations. In addition, we have tightened the rules of the Voluntary Disclosure Program to ensure that those who use the program do not have an unfair economic advantage over the majority of Canadians who file and pay their taxes in full and on time.
We have created country by country agreements for tax information. And we are working with the OECD and other international partners.
On CEWS and tax evasion
The government is taking unprecedented steps in order to support businesses and employees who are affected by COVID-19. We will ensure that anyone who tries to get around the rules, will be exposed to significant consequences.
Businesses that seek to engage in aggressive tax planning to exploit the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program and engage in fraudulent activity, can expect the Agency to apply a full range of compliance measures.
Union Negotiations
Redirect: Commissioner
I am confident that the CRA continues to negotiate with its union representatives in a way that is fair to employees and Canadians.
It is important to acknowledge that since the beginning of the COVID-19 crisis, countless Agency employees, members of both unions, have gone above and beyond to deliver critical services to Canadians.
The PIPSC-AFS and PSAC-UTE representatives have been and continue to be excellent collaborative partners in the implementation of the Government of Canada's COVID-19 emergency economic measures.
Audit and Compliance Stance
Commissioner/Ted Gallivan
Generally, the CRA will not start new audits or ask taxpayers currently under audit for information until further notice.
Audits will only be finalized and reassessments issued in exceptional circumstances. These could include, for example, cases involving a significant compliance issue, cases approaching a major milestone (such as statute-barred or treaty-barred date) or cases where the taxpayer requests a reassessment.
Taxpayer-requested adjustments will be reviewed and processed on a priority basis, and may require interaction with the taxpayer to verify the request.
The GST/HST Refund Integrity Program will continue operating to make sure GST/HST credits are not delayed unnecessarily.
As noted above, most administrative income tax actions due after March 18, 2020, have been suspended until June 1, 2020, this includes requests for information made during the course of CRA audits. Compliance staff will contact taxpayers with a new due date in cases where the information is still needed.
Changes to Filing/Payment Deadlines
Commissioner/Frank Vermaeten
Individuals / self-employed:
The deadline to file your 2019 individual income tax and benefit returns has been extended to June 1, 2020.
The deadline to pay any balance due for your individual income tax and benefit return for 2019 has been extended from April 30, 2020, to September 1, 2020. This means you will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your balance due is paid by September 1, 2020.
For self-employed individuals or those who have spouses or common-law partners that are self-employed, the deadline to pay any balance due for your individual income tax and benefit return has been extended from April 30, 2020, to September 1, 2020.
For individuals who pay income tax by instalments, the June 15, 2020 instalment payments will be deferred until September 1, 2020. You will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your instalment is paid by September 1, 2020.
Businesses:
The deadline for businesses to pay any income tax amounts that become owing or due after March 18, 2020 and before September 1, 2020 has been extended to September 1, 2020. This means you will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your balance due is paid by September 1, 2020.
Motion – April 11, 2020
That, notwithstanding any standing order, special order or usual practice of the House:
- the application of Standing Orders 15, 17 and 56.1 be suspended for the current sitting;
- the government responses to petitions 431-00046 to 431-00123 be tabled immediately and that those to questions on the Order Paper numbered Q-260 to Q-308 and Q-310 to Q-368 be made into orders for returns and that the said returns be tabled immediately;
- Tuesday, March 24, 2020, and this day shall not be considered as sitting days for the purposes of Standing Orders 34(1), 37(3), 51(1) and 110 and subsection 28(12) of the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons;
- a bill in the name of the Minister of Finance, entitled A second Act respecting certain measures in response to COVID-19, be deemed to have been introduced and read a first time and ordered for consideration at second reading later this day;
- Statements by Ministers be taken up immediately following the adoption of this order and that a member of the Green Party also be permitted to reply to the statement;
- following the responses to the ministerial statement, the House shall resolve itself into a committee of the whole to consider matters related to the COVID-19 pandemic for a period not exceeding two hours and provided that, during the proceedings of the committee, (i) the Speaker may preside, (ii) the Chair may preside from the Speaker's chair, (iii) the Chair shall call members in a fashion consistent with the proportions observed during Oral Questions, (iv) no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time which may be used for posing questions to a minister of the Crown or a parliamentary secretary acting on behalf of the minister, (v) members may be permitted to split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the Chair; and at the conclusion of the time provided for the proceedings, or when no member rises to speak, whichever is earlier, the committee shall rise;
- when the committee of the whole rises, the House shall begin debate on the motion for second reading of the bill referred to in paragraph (d); a member of each recognized party and a member of the Green Party may speak to the said motion for not more than 20 minutes, followed by 10 minutes for questions and comments, provided that members may be permitted to split their time with another member; and, at the conclusion of the time provided for the debate or when no member rises to speak, whichever is earlier, all questions necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill shall be put without further debate or amendment, provided that, if a recorded division is requested, it shall not be deferred and that, if the bill is adopted at second reading, it shall be referred to a committee of the whole; deemed considered in committee of the whole, deemed reported without amendment, deemed concurred in at report stage on division, and deemed read a third time and passed on division;
- when the bill referred to in paragraph (d) has been read the third time and passed, the House shall adjourn until Monday, April 20, 2020, provided that, for the purposes of any standing order, it shall be deemed adjourned pursuant to Standing Order 28, and, for greater certainty, the provisions of paragraphs (m) to (p) of the order adopted on Friday, March 13, 2020, and subparagraph (f)(ii) and paragraphs (i) to (m) of the order adopted on Tuesday, March 24, 2020, remain in effect;
- during the period the House stands adjourned, the House may be recalled, under the provisions of Standing Order 28(3), to consider measures to address the economic impact of COVID-19 and the impacts on the lives of Canadians;
- if, during the period the House stands adjourned pursuant to this order, the Speaker receives a notice from the House leaders of all four recognized parties indicating that it is in the public interest that the House remain adjourned until a future date or until future notice is given to the Speaker, the House will remain adjourned accordingly, provided that, in the event of the Speaker being unable to act owing to illness or other cause, the Deputy Speaker or either of the Assistant Deputy Speakers shall act in the Speaker's stead for all the purposes of this paragraph;
- during the period the House stands adjourned pursuant to this order, any return, report or other paper required to be laid before the House in accordance with any act of Parliament, or in pursuance of any order of this House, may be deposited with the Clerk of the House, on any Wednesday provided that committee reports presented pursuant to an order of this House may be deposited at any time; such return, report or other paper shall be deposited electronically and shall be deemed for all purposes to have been presented to or laid before the House;
- during the period the House stands adjourned pursuant to this order, the Standing Committee on Health, the Standing Committee on Finance, the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities and the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology may hold meetings for the sole purpose of receiving evidence related to the COVID-19 pandemic, provided that, at such meetings, (i) committee members shall attend and witnesses shall participate via either videoconference or teleconference, (ii) committee members attending by videoconference or teleconference shall be counted for the purposes of quorum, (iii) proceedings shall be made available to the public via the House of Commons website, (iv) notices of membership substitutions pursuant to Standing Order 114(2) may be filed with the clerk of each committee by email; and further provided that these committees (i) shall each meet at least once per week, unless the whips of all recognized parties agree not to hold a meeting, (ii) may each receive evidence which may otherwise exceed the committee's mandate under Standing Order 108, (iii) shall meet within 48 hours of the receipt by email, by the clerk of the committee, of a request signed by any four members of the committee;
- the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs be instructed to study ways in which members can fulfill their parliamentary duties while the House stands adjourned on account of public health concerns caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, including the temporary modification of certain procedures, sittings in alternate locations and technological solutions including a virtual Parliament, provided that (i) during the period the House stands adjourned pursuant to this order, the provisions applying to committees enumerated in paragraph (l) shall also apply to the committee, however, the committee may consider motions related to the adoption of a draft report in relation to this study, (ii) the committee be instructed to present a report no later than May 15, 2020;
- in addition to receiving evidence, the committees enumerated in paragraphs l) and m) of this order, while meeting by videoconference or teleconference, may also consider motions requesting or scheduling specific witnesses and these motions shall be decided by way of a recorded vote;
- for the purposes of committee meetings convened under paragraphs (l) and (m), priority for the use of House resources shall be given, in the following order, to (i) meetings of the Standing Committee on Health, (ii) meetings of the Standing Committee on Finance, (iii) meetings which are specified by the agreement of the whips of all recognized parties, (iv) all other meetings, in the order in which the meetings were convened;
- the House call on the Auditor General of Canada to conduct an audit of (i) the spending undertaken pursuant to the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act, (ii) the exercise of the provisions of the Financial Administration Act, and the Borrowing Authority Act enacted by Part 8 of the COVID-19 Emergency Response Act, and that the Auditor General report his findings to the House no later than June 1, 2021;
- the House call upon the government to take such measures as are necessary to ensure that the Auditor General has sufficient resources to conduct the work he has been asked by the House to do, including the audits called for in this order and the orders adopted on Wednesday, January 29, 2020, and Friday, March 13, 2020;
- [Amended] the government implement measures without delay to address gaps in the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, or other programs, existing or proposed, to address the needs of seasonal workers, those who have exhausted their EI benefits, students, owner/operators, those who continue to receive a modest income from part-time work, royalties, and honoraria, and that, in addition, the government work to ensure essential workers who receive low wages will receive additional income support during this time of crisis, and commit that those who have applied in good faith for and received benefits through CERB or other programs to support them through this crisis will not be unjustly penalized;
- the government implement, in the short-term, support measures for Canadian small and medium-sized enterprises, which will be partially non-refundable, with the primary objective of maintaining jobs and reducing debt related to fixed costs, while maintaining access to liquidity in the form of loans; and
- the House note that the measures included in An Act to amend the Financial Administration Act (special warrant), the COVID-19 Emergency Response Act, and the bill referred to in paragraph (d) are for the purpose of dealing with the unique circumstances and the time period of the COVID-19 situation and recovery.
Issue notes
COVID-19 expenditures
Issue statement:
What is the financial impact of managing the COVID-19 crisis on the Canada Revenue Agency?
Key messages:
- The financial impact of the COVID-19 crisis on the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) will be significant given its central role in the implementation of many of the Federal Government’s initiatives in response to this crisis as well as the pressure to ensure the least amount of disruption possible to its operations which, at the time, was approaching the peak of the 2019 Tax filling season.
- Following the Prime Minister’s announcements of measures such as the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB), Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS), and Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB), the CRA staff was mobilized to develop and implement these programs. In addition, in anticipation of an exponential increase in calls, the Agency’s call centre capacity was mobilized and supplemented.
- The call agents in the eight call centres had to be equipped to handle the new call volumes remotely and supplemented by existing staff from other programs, many of whom were also equipped to take calls from home.
- The CRA is tracking the costs associated with the management of the COVID-19 crisis, to estimate the financial impact of the measures undertaken by the Government of Canada to limit the spread of the virus.
- The total cost estimates for the duration of the measures are still under development.
To date:
- To date, the CRA’s efforts have been dedicated to ensuring the COVID-19 measures are well developed and implemented. Costs are being tracked in the CRA systems for both the purchase of equipment and the time spent by employees. These costs are likely incomplete in some areas at this point, as we are working with a reduced workforce and employees and managers concentrate on delivering the programs.
- IT costs for new hardware, software, and overall infrastructure upgrades for both the CRA’s and Shared Services Canada’s (SSC) platforms were necessary to ensure the CRA can support the implementation of any new measures. Equipment such as cell phones and laptops were purchased and deployed to critical personnel, including contact centre agents supporting the Canadian population.
- To ensure CRA employees, including those assigned to critical services, were able to work remotely during the COVID crisis both from a network perspective and a personal equipment perspective the Agency spent approximately $8 million in IT equipment and required infrastructure upgrades in 2019-2020. This investment is expected to increase by another estimated $15 million.
- To date, CRA has been focused on establishing a robust tracking methodology and ensuring programs are implemented. Going forward, CRA will begin to shift the focus to developing forecasts as part of regular quarterly projection process; including the costs associated with building re-entry as well as equipping additional employees with remote access.
Administrative Measures
Issue statement:
The Canada Revenue Agency is committed to helping Canadians navigate these uncertain times.
Key messages:
- The Canada Revenue Agency understands that this is an unprecedented time and has taken the following administrative measures to better support Canadians:
Changes to filing/payment deadlines:
- Individuals / self-employed:
- The deadline to file your 2019 individual income tax and benefit returns has been extended to June 1, 2020.
- The deadline to pay any balance due for your individual income tax and benefit return for 2019 has been extended from April 30, 2020, to September 1, 2020. This means you will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your balance due is paid by September 1, 2020.
- For self-employed individuals or those who have spouses or common-law partners that are self-employed, the deadline to pay any balance due for your individual income tax and benefit return has been extended from April 30, 2020, to September 1, 2020.
- For individuals who pay income tax by instalments, the June 15, 2020 instalment payments will be deferred until September 1, 2020. You will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your instalment is paid by September 1, 2020.
- Businesses:
- The deadline for businesses to pay balances and instalments under Part I of the Income Tax Act that become owing or due after March 18, 2020 and before September 1, 2020 has been extended to September 1, 2020. This means you will not be assessed any penalties or interest if your balance due is paid by September 1, 2020.
Changes to approaches in collections / audits:
- Collections:
- Collections activities on new debts will be suspended until further notice, and flexible payment arrangements will be available.
- If you can't pay your taxes, child and family benefit overpayments, Canada Student Loans, or other government program overpayments in full, payment arrangements are available.
- Collections staff will address pre-existing situations on a case-by-case basis to prevent financial hardship.
- Our Debt Management Call Centre service is not currently available.
- Collections Officers can be contacted via toll free number between 8 am and 4 pm your local time.
- Audits:
- The CRA will generally not contact small or medium (SME) businesses to initiate any post assessment GST/HST or income tax audits until further notice.
- Interaction with taxpayers will be limited to high risk and exceptional cases, or cases of high risk GST/HST refund claims which require some contact before they can be paid out. Other audits are temporarily suspended.
COVID-19 Support:
- DDFI - Individuals:
- The Government of Canada has partnered with Canadian financial institutions to offer Canada Revenue Agency direct deposit enrolment online to help facilitate the timely receipt of benefit payments, like the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, during these unprecedented times.
- To ensure that Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) payments could be delivered to millions of Canadians within days, the CRA partnered with financial institutions to enroll 1.4 million Canadians for direct deposit through these institutions.
DDFI - Businesses:
- The CRA has partnered with many Canadian financial institutions to offer a new service to Canadian employers that allows employers to register their business payroll accounts for direct deposit with the CRA directly through their bank portals.
Call centres:
- We are taking innovative approaches to serve Canadians over the phone. The CRA has successfully transferred almost all of our call agents to remote work. This has allowed the CRA to return to the full capacity of agents serving Canadians, while still maintaining recommended physical distancing.
Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB)
Issue statement:
The CRA is supporting Canadians through the COVID-19 pandemic.
Key messages:
- To support Canadians though the COVID-19 pandemic, the CRA is working with ESDC to jointly administer the Canada Emergency Response Benefit starting April 2020 on behalf of the Government of Canada.
- The Canada Emergency Response Benefit provides temporary income support to workers who have stopped working and are without employment or self-employment income of less then a $1000 for reasons related to COVID-19.
- The benefit is available from March 15, 2020 to September 26, 2020. You can apply no later than December 2, 2020.
- The income of at least $5,000 may be from any or a combination of the following sources: employment; self-employment; maternity and parental benefits under the Employment Insurance program and/or similar benefits paid in Quebec under the Quebec Parental Insurance Plan.
- The Benefit is taxable although tax will not be deducted at source. You will be expected to report the Benefit as income when you file your income tax for the 2020 tax year.
- The CRA has updated its systems and infrastructure in order to process the millions of applications received from Canadians who urgently need this financial assistance.
- Since the launch on April 6, there have been more than 7.5M (7,546,134) applications to the CRA.
- As a result of some parts of the country slowly allowing more businesses to reopen, and the successful launch of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy, more and more Canadians will be returning to work in the coming weeks. As such, the CRA encourages all applicants to carefully consider these changing conditions before they apply for the third eligibility period.
CERB Repayment / CEWS Interplay
Issue statement:
As some parts of the country slowly reopen in the coming weeks, more Canadians may be returning to work. In addition, employers may rehire under CEWS. CERB applicants are encouraged to consider these changing conditions before applying for the third eligibility period. In some cases, the CERB may need to be repaid.
Key messages:
- The Government of Canada’s priority has been to get money to those who urgently need it. With this in mind, the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) developed a CERB application process that was quick and easy to use. As a result, many Canadians received payments days after applying.
- The third eligibility period for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) will open today (May 11). This four-week period covers May 10 – June 6, 2020.
- As a result of some parts of the country slowly allowing more businesses to reopen, and the successful launch of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS), more and more Canadians will be returning to work in the coming weeks. As such, the CRA encourages all applicants to carefully consider these changing conditions before they apply for the third eligibility period.
- Canadians are required to repay the CERB if they no longer meet the eligibility requirements for the 4-week period in question. This could happen if an individual earns employment or self-employment income greater than $1000 earlier than expected.
- Since the CERB is taxable, individuals will receive T4A slips on the amount of CERB they received in 2020. If an individual repays the CERB, the CRA will not issue a T4A slip for the amount that was repaid by December 31, 2020. The CRA is encouraging individuals to repay these amounts by December 31, 2020.
- Beginning today, May 11, the CRA is offering a convenient way to repay the CERB with a few simple clicks using My Account.
CERB/CEWS/CESB Integrity
Issue statement:
The CRA will ensure the integrity of its programs.
Key messages:
- The Government of Canada’s priority has been to get the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) payments to those who urgently need it.
- The CERB application process is similar to tax return processing in that it is attestation-based at the time the application is made.
- As with other benefits administered by the CRA, we will undertake verification activities at a later date.
- The CRA has records of who received the CERB, and for what period, from both the CRA and Service Canada. These will be used, along with tax slips received from employers, to validate eligibility.
- In cases where claimants are found to be ineligible, they will be contacted to make arrangements to repay any applicable amounts. These amounts do not carry any penalties or interest but will need to be paid back.
- The CRA has added more detailed information on our CERB web page to explain to Canadians why they may need to return or repay the CERB and how to do so.
CEWS
- The government is taking unprecedented steps in order to support businesses and employees who are affected by COVID-19. This is an extremely solid program and we will not tolerate abuse of this program. We will ensure that anyone who tries to get around the rules, will be exposed to significant consequences. Businesses that seek to engage in aggressive tax planning to exploit the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program and engage in fraudulent activity, can expect the Agency to apply a full range of compliance measures.
Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB)
Issue statement:
The CRA is providing support to post-secondary students and recent graduates.
Key messages:
- The Government of Canada is providing an economic response to the COVID-19 global crisis including $9 billion to support post-secondary students and recent graduates.
- Included in this framework, the Canada Emergency Student Benefit (CESB) provides financial support to recent graduates and post-secondary students who are unable to find employment due to COVID-19, and who are not eligible for either the Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) or Employment Insurance (EI).
- This benefit will provide $1,250 per month for eligible students or $2,000 per month for eligible students who have disabilities or dependents.
- The criteria with respect to dependents and permanent disabilities may be set out in the regulations as drafted by ESDC as it is responsible for the legislation.
- The CESB is available for a maximum of 16 weeks from May 10 until August 29, 2020 and represents an investment of $5.2 billion and is expected to reach approximately one million students.
- Applications will open in May.
- To deliver an efficient service experience, the CRA is ready to offer the same fast and easy application process that has delivered CERB payments to millions of Canadians.
Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS)
Issue statement:
The CRA has taken steps to ensure the success and the integrity of the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS)
Key messages:
- The Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) aims to prevent further job losses, encourage employers to re-hire workers who were laid off as a result of COVID-19, and help position businesses to resume normal operations more easily following the crisis.
- The CEWS allows eligible employers to rehire workers who were laid-off due to COVID-19, retroactive to March 15, 2020. The CEWS application process is now open.
- This important economic measure provides a subsidy of 75% of an eligible employee's weekly earnings, to a maximum of $847 per employee per week, to eligible employers, for up to 12 weeks.
- Employers may apply for the CEWS up to December 2020. CRA’s application portal opened on April 27. Since then, over 125K businesses have applied and $3.10 billion has been paid. This represents over 1.5 million employees whose wages will be supported by CEWS.
- To ensure that the CRA can provide efficient service to employers as we deliver this critical measure, we have dedicated significant resources including thousands of CRA employees across Canada who will be implementing the CEWS program.
- By providing employers with additional details about their subsidy claim, the CEWS calculator can equip employers with important information they can use now to make more informed decisions about retaining and re-hiring workers. A series of information sessions will be held in the coming days to provide a forum for eligible employers.
- The CEWS calculator can be found on CRA’s Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy Web page. This Web page incorporates feedback received during user testing with stakeholders, including the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and the Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada.
Fact Sheet: Emergency Response Benefits - Canada Revenue Agency
Canada Emergency Response Benefit (CERB)
As of 11:59PM Sunday May 10th:
- Over 7.6M (7,633,310) applications to the CRA since launch on April 6
- With a total dollar value of $15B ($15.27 billion)
As of 11:59PM Thursday May 7th:
- Over 11M (11.21M) applications received between CRA/ESDC since launch on April 6
Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS)
As of 11:59PM Sunday May 10th:
- Over 127K (127,870) applications received since launch on April 27
- 116,011 applications approved
- 1,594,104 employees will have wages supported by CEWS
- $3.17 billion is the dollar value of subsidies paid
Special GST/HST Credit
- The special one time payment was issued on April 9, 2020 with $5.1B paid out.
- For reference, if we consider both the regular payments (issued on April 3) with the additional emergency payment:
- We issued GST/HST credit payments to nearly 12M (11,899,450) unique recipients for a total of over $6B ($6,335,988,000). That compares to just over $1.2B paid out in each of the last two years in April.
- Of note, for the 65+ population, we issued GST/HST credit payments to over 3M unique recipients for a total of nearly $1.6B ($1,580,317,000). That compares to just over $300M paid out in each of the last two years in April.
- See Table 1 for more details
- We issued GST/HST credit payments to nearly 12M (11,899,450) unique recipients for a total of over $6B ($6,335,988,000). That compares to just over $1.2B paid out in each of the last two years in April.
CCB Top Up
- On May 20, 2020 the GoC will be issuing 3.7 million Canada child benefit (CCB) top up payments totaling $2 billion dollars, in order to help families during this current pandemic environment.
- This measure will be delivered as part of the scheduled CCB payment in May 2020 and will provide up to an extra $300 per child.
- This will mean approximately $550 more for the average family.
Filing Extensions
- Defer all Goods and Services Tax/Harmonized Sales Tax (GST/HST) payments
- Allow businesses, including self-employed individuals, to defer all Goods and Services Tax/Harmonized Sales Tax (GST/HST) payments until June, as well as customs duties owed for imports.
- This measure is the equivalent of providing up to $30 billion in interest-free loans to Canadian businesses.
- Defer the payment of income taxes
- The government is allowing all taxpayers to defer, until August 31, 2020, the payment of income tax amounts that become owing on or after March 18 and before September 2020.
- This relief would apply to new balances due, as well as instalments, under Part I of the Income Tax Act.
- No interest or penalties will accumulate on these amounts during this period.
GST/HST Credit Issue Period | Number of GST/HST Credit Payments | Number of Unique GST/HST Credit Recipients | GST/HST Credit Payment Amounts | GST/HST Credit Number of Unique Recipients 65+ | GST/HST Credit Payment Amounts to Recipients 65+ |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
April 2020 | 21,441,340 | 11,899,450 | $6,335,988,000.00 | 3,117,530 | $1,580,317,000.00 |
April 2019 | 9,464,120 | 9,448,850 | $1,226,039,000.00 | 2,422,280 | $313,750,000.00 |
April 2018 | 9,478,830 | 9,467,820 | $1,218,645,000.00 | 2,385,430 | $305,284,000.00 |
- All data in the table are as of April 30th, 2020
- Data are subject to change as tax returns are (re)assessed
- Data were compared to Bank of Canada payment data and previous extracts of GST/HST Credit data for quality assurance
- Counts are rounded to the nearest ten and amounts are rounded to the nearest thousand
CRA Capacity
Issue statement:
The CRA is balancing the health and safety of all its employees while maintaining service to Canadians in the face of unprecedented demands on the CRA’s systems and the Government’s telephone infrastructure.
Key messages:
- The CRA delivers benefit payments to millions of Canadians and business owners every year; this is at the core of our business.
- Since the launch of CERB on April 6, 2020 there have been over 25 million (25,426,547) logins to the My Account portal, representing an increase of over 200% compared to logins for the same period last year.
- Since the launch of CEWS on April 27, 2020 there have been just over 441,000 (441,048) logins to the My Business Account portal, representing an increase of over 150% compared to logins for the same period last year.
- The CRA also launched Charlie the Chatbot on March 27, 2020. Since its launch, Charlie has answered over 1.69 million questions and has had over 509,000 conversations with visitors on Canada.ca.
- In April 2020, over 1 million (1,124,311) individuals registered for the My Account portal, representing an increase of over 300% compared to registrations for the same period last year.
- We are evolving our call centre services to better serve Canadians over the phone. The CRA has successfully transferred almost all of our call agents to remote work. This has allowed the CRA to return to the full capacity of agents serving Canadians. We have over 3,000 regular call centre agents serving Canadians and Canadian businesses.
- In addition to our regular call centre employees, after a call out by the Commissioner to CRA employees, over 7,500 volunteered to answer questions about the subsidies. A total of 4,000 of these temporary agents have been trained, equipped, and are providing support to Canadians that have general questions about the CERB, CESB, and CEWS.
- We have kept our call centres open longer in order for Canadians to get the information they need.
- The CRA is balancing the health and safety of all its employees, whether in processing centres or call centres, while maintaining service to Canadians. We have equipped most of our call centre agents with the tools they need to work from home. The CRA is balancing the health and safety of all its employees while maintaining service to Canadians.
- Refunds related to electronically filed returns may be received in as little as 8 business days. While we are currently processing paper returns, some Canadians can expect delays due to the reduction in on-site staff.
- For those taxpayers who have already filed a 2019 tax year paper return that has not been processed yet, the CRA will allow these taxpayers the option to also file their 2019 return electronically. This temporary measure that started April 20, 2020, was put into place to help circumvent any paper return processing delays.
- The CRA understands that this measure will not address every situation as not all taxpayers will be able to file their returns electronically. For this reason, every effort is being made to focus on paper return processing while respecting public health authorities’ guidelines.
CVITP / Vulnerable Populations
Issue statement:
The CRA is supporting vulnerable populations during COVID-19.
Key messages:
- Many community organizations had to close or scale back on the free tax clinics they offer due to concerns surrounding COVID-19.
- We know how important these clinics are to communities and we are happy to announce that community organizations will be hosting free, virtual tax clinics in the coming weeks.
- These clinics will continue to be offered by volunteers and organizations in partnership with the Canada Revenue Agency’s Community Volunteer Income Tax Program (CVITP) and the Income Tax Assistance – Volunteer Program in Quebec.
- These virtual clinics will be held on an interim basis, while much of the country is following physical distancing guidelines.
- As we face the economic and social consequences of the COVID-19 outbreak, free tax help is essential to ensuring those who are entitled to receive benefits, get them. To help fill this gap during the COVID-19 outbreak, several organizations that normally hold clinics in-person will continue hosting virtual clinics.
- The volunteers will interview clients and get the necessary consent electronically or verbally (instead of by signature). Volunteers will track, document, and submit details of the consent to the CRA. As usual, volunteers will complete and submit returns on behalf of the taxpayer using the CVITP UFILE software.
- The clinics will also provide an opportunity to educate vulnerable populations on the COVID-19-related benefits and credits announced by the Government of Canada.
- As well, tax filing season has been extended from April 30 to June 1, 2020. We hope this will give community organizations that have had to postpone their clinics the opportunity to host virtual clinics before the June 1, 2020 filing deadline and beyond.
Journalism
Issue statement:
The CRA is working to deliver on the Government’s commitment to provide support to journalism organizations.
Key messages:
- The establishment of the Independent Advisory Board on Eligibility for Journalism Tax Measures on March 25, 2020, and the announcement of proposed changes to the legislation on April 17, 2020, puts the CRA in a position to deliver on the Government’s commitment to provide much needed support to journalism organizations.
- Prior to those announcements, the CRA released technical guidance and the application form in December 2019 and has received 97 applications to date. Work commenced on reviewing those applications, albeit at a reduced capacity given the constraints imposed by the pandemic.
- The CRA is working with the independent Advisory Board and is looking forward to this work extending to requesting and receiving its recommendations on whether an organization meets certain criteria required for designation.
- Organizations that are designated, can claim the labour tax credit, subject to meeting the requirements for the credit.
- The CRA is updating its technical guidance to make information available to journalism organizations in light of the proposed changes announced in April.
- Journalism organizations are encouraged to apply for the journalism measures by submitting their documents to the "My Business Account" portal during the COVID-19 pandemic, to help facilitate the receipt and review of their materials given current physical distancing directives that are in place.
Privacy management during the COVID-19 pandemic
Issue statement:
The CRA is protecting Canadians’ personal information during its response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Key messages:
- Privacy management is a cornerstone of the CRA’s normal business and a critical component of the Canada Revenue Agency’s (CRA) Business Continuity Plan.
- We are firmly committed to preserving the confidentiality and privacy of Canadian’s personal information, while we continue to ensure that the CRA supports Canadians during this time.
- The CRA has heightened awareness to ensure employees continue to protect Canadian’s personal information when working virtually.
- In keeping with the CRA’s recently published Privacy Management Framework, the implementation of all COVID-related benefit programs have complied with the Privacy Act and have considered the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada’s (OPC) Framework for assessing initiatives in crisis situations.
- The CRA has taken a proactive approach and briefed the OPC before each benefit was implemented.
- Privacy measures include:
- posting privacy notices related to the collection of personal information
- developing information sharing agreements between the CRA and Employment Skills Development Canada
- mitigating all related risks via security assessments and privacy impact assessments
- In some cases, the CRA has implemented temporary procedures in order to continue to provide critical services to Canadians. For example, in certain circumstances, the use of cell phones or unencrypted email to share sensitive information has been permitted.
- Where measures being put in place represent a departure from existing policies, we have performed risk and security assessments, and implemented security waivers that outline the specific mitigation strategies that have been applied to safeguard personal information.
- The CRA is committed to assessing and improving all controls put in place on an ongoing basis.
Security and telework
Issue statement:
How does the CRA ensure that the taxpayer information is protected if employees are working from home?
Key messages:
- The Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) takes its role in safeguarding taxpayer information very seriously and has strict security measures in place to ensure the security of taxpayer information.
- Many CRA employees have the capacity to telework or work offsite, connecting remotely to the CRA network via a fully secure virtual private network.
- These employees are issued secured laptops that are fully encrypted with industry-standard, end-point protection technology and are provided with specific guidance on how to securely manage sensitive information.
- Whether working from home or from the office, employees must continue to safeguard any CRA protected information and assets, and meet security requirements.
- Several CRA programs and services have long had requirements for employees to work external from their physical office. For example, Tax Auditors who meet businesses or taxpayers at their residence or place of business.
- As a result, the CRA has well-developed security policies and controls that employees must follow in order to protect sensitive information when outside of the office.
- These controls and safeguards have been instrumental in enabling the CRA to rapidly increase the number of employees working from home as a result of the current physical limitations introduced by the pandemic.
- Working from home presents unique challenges and increased risks to the protection of information. To address these risks, the CRA provides its employees with awareness and instructions on how to mitigate the risks specific to their work functions and home office environment.
- To continue to provide Canadians with timely assistance and service during the current environment, the CRA has had to adopt work processes that were not previously implemented. For example, the use of cellular phones by employees answering phone calls of Canadians in the interest of enabling the CRA to answer as many calls as possible.
Cybersecurity Measures
- Working in collaboration with SSC, CSE, CCCS, additional measures have been taken to ensure that the new economic measures will be secure from cyber attack such as:
- Increased monitoring: The CRA Canadian Security Operations Centre (CSOC) has increased their monitoring and Virtual War Rooms were set up to ensure efficient coordination if an event occurred
- CRA and CCCS are working together to take down fake websites that trick taxpayers into believing they are on a CRA website.
- Number of “Take downs” since March 1, 2020: ~534 sites
- CCCS is carefully monitoring any email spoofing of the CRA domain.
Further explanatory security notes
- Before new processes or technologies are adopted by the CRA, an evaluation is conducted to understand the potential risks it presents and identify any additional controls or mitigation efforts that can be undertaken to reduce the risk.
- Once this evaluation is completed and an informed risk decision is taken, instructions and procedures are distributed to employees on the additional steps that need to be taken, for example informing the taxpayer that the phone call is being taken from a cell phone and providing the caller an opportunity to pursue other means of communicating with the CRA.
- Wherever possible, the CRA has sought alternative processes to reduce the need for employees to access sensitive information in paper format outside of offices. For example, scanning and digitizing correspondence received on paper and electronically storing these documents in secure network repositories that employees can access securely from their home location.
- In those cases where avoiding paper documentation is not feasible, employees are required to follow the security controls for safeguarding the documents during transit, while processing, and ensuring safe storage at their home before returning it to the office for secure destruction or archiving.
- The CRA has a broad range of checks and balances to ensure that effective controls are in place. These controls remain in effect during the current environment and include:
- limiting employees' access permissions to only the information required to perform their work functions
- reviewing employee access permissions to CRA systems regularly
- The monitoring of employee accesses to taxpayer information with a state-of-the art Enterprise Fraud Management (EFM) solution that conducts proactive monitoring of employee accesses to detect potentially unauthorized accesses.
Tax Evasion and Avoidance
Issue statement:
With an investment of $1B, the Government has given the CRA the resources it needs in order to do its work and we are starting to see results.
Key messages:
- The CRA has recently improved its compliance activities, operationally achieving over 91% of its cumulative $5.1B target for 2021-2022, three years ahead of schedule.
- The positive results were achieved by:
- targeting the highest risk taxpayers nationally;
- risk-assessing 100% of all large business corporate tax returns on a yearly basis;
- better identifying high-risk transactions;
- using third party data such as Electronic Fund Transfers, Common Reporting Standard, Country-by-Country Reporting, and leaks; and
- collaborating with partner countries through international organizations.
- Strategically, this CRA crackdown on tax avoidance has brought hundreds of tax issues to the courts. These cases provide a roadmap; each year this government has introduced legislative changes to close loopholes and I look forward to both this government and this parliament continuing to identify areas of priority.
- We have made investment of $1B and in addition, the Government has given the CRA the resources it needs in order to do its work and we are starting to see results.
- An expert advisory panel has been created which is giving us recommendations. In addition, we have tightened the rules of the Voluntary Disclosure Program to ensure that those who use the program do not have an unfair economic advantage over the majority of Canadians who file and pay their taxes in full and on time.
- We have created country-by-country agreements for tax information. In addition, we are working with the OECD and other international partners.
- The government is taking unprecedented steps in order to support businesses and employees who are affected by COVID-19. We will ensure that anyone who tries to get around the rules will be exposed to significant consequences.
- Businesses that seek to engage in aggressive tax planning to exploit the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program and engage in fraudulent activity, can expect the Agency to apply a full range of compliance measures.
Canada Revenue Agency - Union Negotiation Update
Issue statement:
The PIPSC-AFS and PSAC-UTE representatives are excellent collaborative partners in the implementation of the Government of Canada's COVID-19 emergency economic measures.
Key messages:
- The CRA continues to negotiate with its union representatives in a way that is fair to employees and Canadians.
- It is important to note that since the beginning of the COVID-19 crisis, Agency employees, members of both unions, have been actively involved in the delivery of critical services to Canadians.
- While we are currently focusing our attention and efforts on providing critical services to Canadians, the Agency remains committed to reaching an agreement with PSAC-UTE.
- The Agency therefore hopes to reach an agreement that is fair to employees and Canadians, and we believe that the recommendations in the PIC report can help the parties achieve this.
Context
The Agency is a separate employer and is responsible for collective bargaining with its two bargaining agents: the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada – Audit, Financial and Scientific Group (PIPSC-AFS), and the Public Service Alliance of Canada – Union of Taxation Employees (PSAC-UTE), including establishing its negotiation mandates. In turn, the Agency’s Board of Management, pursuant to its oversight authority, recommends these negotiating mandates to the President of the Treasury Board for approval.
Since December 2012, the Agency must have negotiating mandates approved by the Treasury Board. This measure ensures alignment with broad Government of Canada objectives for the management of the federal public sector.
Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada – Audit, Financial and Scientific Group (PIPSC-AFS)
The PIPSC-AFS Group bargaining unit has approximately 12,000 members, which primarily consists of Auditors (AU), Computer Systems (CS), and Management Group (MG-AFS) employees.
The current collective agreement between the Agency and the PIPSC-AFS came into effect on August 23, 2019, and expires on December 21, 2022.
Public Service Alliance of Canada – Union of Taxation Employees (PSAC-UTE)
The PSAC-UTE Program Delivery and Administrative Services bargaining unit has approximately 29,000 members. The bargaining unit consists of two occupational groups: the Service Program group (SP) and the Management Group (MG-SPS).
The current collective agreement between the Agency and the PSAC-UTE expired on October 31, 2016. On the same day, the PSAC-UTE served the Agency with a notice to bargain.
In terms of the current round of negotiations, the Agency’s collective bargaining team met with the union for six bargaining sessions and two mediation sessions between June 2018 and May 2019.
During the last mediation session held in May 2019, the union declared an impasse in the bargaining process and then filed a request for the establishment of a public interest commission (PIC), the method of resolution chosen by the union. The PIC is established under the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations Act.
On January 6 and 20, 2020, the Agency and the PSAC-UTE participated in a PIC hearing. On April 29, 2020, the PIC Chair issued the final report which includes recommendations on some of the outstanding issues between the parties. The recommendations included in this report are not binding; however, they may assist the parties in reaching a settlement through further negotiations.
Next steps
The Agency is analyzing the report’s recommendations and will reach out shortly to the PSAC-UTE to discuss next steps.
In order to continue its negotiations, we will need to obtain a revised mandate from the Treasury Board, and to this end, discussions have been initiated.
It is important to note that since the beginning of the COVID-19 crisis, Agency employees, members of both unions, have been actively involved in the delivery of critical services to Canadians. The PIPSC-AFS and PSAC-UTE representatives have been and continue to be excellent collaborative partners in the implementation of the Government of Canada's COVID-19 emergency economic measures.
While we are currently focusing our attention and efforts on providing critical services to Canadians, the Agency remains committed to reaching an agreement with PSAC-UTE that have been without a contract of employment for more than 3 years.
The Agency therefore hopes to reach an agreement that is fair to employees and Canadians, and we believe that the recommendations in the PIC report can help the parties achieve this.
Meeting 10
43rd Parliament, 1st Session
Friday, May 8, 2020, 11 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.
Webcast
Videoconference
Link to video: https://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/Harmony/en/PowerBrowser/PowerBrowserV2/20200508/-1/33187?Language=English&Stream=Video
Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic
Membership: Committee members of the past session
11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
Appearing
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., President of the Treasury Board
Witnesses
- Treasury Board Secretariat
- Nancy Chahwan, Chief Human Resources Officer
- Francis Bilodeau, Acting Chief Information Officer of Canada
- Marcia Santiago, Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates
- Kathleen Owens, Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Office of the Comptroller General
12:00 p.m. to 1:00 p.m.
- Canada Employment and Immigration Union
- Eddy Bourque, National President
- Public Service Alliance of Canada
- Chris Aylward, National President
- Liam McCarthy, Director, Negotiations and Programs Branch
- Service Employees International Union Healthcare
- Sharleen Stewart, President
- Union of Taxation Employees
- Marc Brière, National President
11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
The Chair (T. Lukiwski, CPC) opened the meeting to confirm that the Whips have agreed to the Committee’s plan to meet Monday and Friday of next week. Future committee business will be discussed at the end of today’s meeting.
First panel began with opening remarks from the President of the Treasury Board.
President of Treasury Board – Hon. Jean-Yves (J-Y) Duclos
The Government’s response to the pandemic with relation to public servants working remotely. The GoC has directed their employees to work from home whenever possible to comply with public health advice. Regardless of where they work, they are continuously working daily to provide critical services and new measures quickly in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. CRA has rolled out services such as the CERB and the CEWS. By May 5, there has been more 7.5 million applicants, 10.7 processed applications. Over 20,000 Canadians brought home safely and armed forces have been helping in long term care homes in Ontario and Quebec as they have been hard hit. Since mid March, these workers have been working from home. Departments have identified their critical services. There are jobs delivering services where working remotely is not feasible, for these situations, employers are making sure that the workers are safe. Many public servants working hard to deliver services to the public. Some require additional equipment such as monitors, mobile devices and laptops. Requests for equipment are being looked at on a case by case basis. With respect to using the government internet network, internet bandwidth increased. Anyone not supporting critical services should limit their use of the network. Public cloud services are being asked to use for unclassified work and use the BBM enterprise application to securely message for up to protected B work. We are also working with thousands of home workers in order to better handle classified information to ensure that it is sent and handled in a safe way. Understand that working remotely for long periods is hard on mental health. We have therefore put employees in contact with mental health services to encourage them to stay healthy and productive. Setting a schedule and staying connected with colleagues and loved ones.
Kelly Block (CPC)
Thanked the public servants working remotely and in the office. Working remotely has its own set of challenges that we are trying to overcome everyday. Responsibility that TBS has in overseeing government contracts. Does TBS provide guidelines for government contracts?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: Regarding guidelines – yes TBS has a set of them both before and now during the pandemic.
K Block (CPC): Guidelines both before and during COVID-19. What has been added?
- K Owens Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Office of the Comptroller General: Emergency contracting. There are controls already in policy. Emergency limits are temporary for during COVID-19. Reporting required within 60 days on contracts. Controller general has asked CFOs to track COVID-19 expenditures.
K Block (CPC): Contracts awarded for PPE?
- K Owens: Yes there are contracts awarded for PPE within emergency limits.
K Block (CPC): One company in particular was awarded a 10 year contract. How does 10 years fit in with emergency limits just stated?
- K Owens: Emergency limits is not for duration but for the value of the contract.
K Block (CPC): 2 billion for PPE and supplies. Contracts that have been struck, these contracts allow for pre-paying?
- K Owens: Specifics of each contract will have to be asked to PSPC. Prepayments allowed with certain conditions. Cannot cross fiscal years.
K Block (CPC): How much can be pre-paid?
- K. Owens: Within value of the contract. Will get back to you on specifics.
P Weiler (Lib): We are all adjusting to working remotely. How has the TBS provided flexibility to departments to be able to respond to COVID-19 immediately?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: We need to provide the benefits and maintain health and safety of our public servants. Keyword from start is flexibility.
P Weiler: What actions have been taken to increase the teleworking capacity? Has there been success?
- N Chahwan Chief Human Resources Officer: We have been able to increase through collaborations with Shared Services Canada. We were able to augment capacity to ensure workers were staying at home whenever possible and being able to conduct critical services. We still had employees showing up at the workplace when absolutely necessary.
P Weiler (Lib): Productivity of public servants is great. During these times, essential Canadians. What actions has the TBS taken to help mental health?
- N Chahwan: Mental health is second pandemic behind COVID-19. TBS has developed toolkit to help with mental health. Accessible to other employers as well as tools are on our website. About self care and care of our teams. Helps managers to manage employees remotely.
J Vignola (Vice-Chair, BQ): 280,000 workers – how many are working remotely?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: Vast majority are working remotely. Can provide numbers but are not the ones making the decision.
- F. Bilodeau, Acting Chief Information Officer of Canada: 150,000 connections to the system to secure VPN access. Not an exact number. Many working remotely and we have asked many to work outside of regular working hours to not overload the system
J Vignola (BQ): Many have needed equipment. In terms of cost, how much has that cost so far to provide them with the equipment they need and what will happen to it once they return to the office.
- F. Bilodeau: Don’t have specific numbers but one of the ministers will answer in a few weeks. Know that a lot of workers already had the appropriate equipment.
J Vignola (BQ): Many changes brought about by this crisis? Awhile ago, shared workspace initiative put in place, was it popular? What were the lessons learned?
- F. Bilodeau: Remote work – we’ve seen a big increase in the ability to allow for remote work. Increased capacity and ability that the government should take into account when we are looking at bringing employees back.
J Vignola (BQ): There is quite a large number of buildings – what happens if they aren’t put to use?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: We will have to look into this after the pandemic.
M. Green (NDP – National Revenue Critic): Collective agreements expired? How many agreements are there and how many employees are affected?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: 35 agreements signed with public servants covering about 70,000 employees and continuing work with bargaining.
M. Green (NDP): For those expired, how long have they been expired? How will payback be done?
- N Chahwan: Don’t have precise numbers. Can get back to you and send it to you after the call.
M Green (NDP): The federal public service 288,000 employees – has COVID-19 had impact on term, casual and student employees in federal public service?
- N Chahwan: Don’t have numbers. With regards to these employees, we have made sure that they were as productive as possible. As for students, there has been a drop in referrals. TBS has worked to make sure our students are provided with an opportunity to help during this time. This can affect their graduations.
M Green (NDP): Impact on composition of public service in medium to long term?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: We are going to need to look after our students and youth in weeks and months to come. Unemployment rate announced today was high.
K McCauley (CPC): How are you ensuring there are no privacy breaches and how is it being tracked?
- F Bilodeau: We’ve increased technological capacity – secure remote access. Reissued guidance to all employees on privacy.
K McCauley (CPC): How are you following up on that? Last year was horrible for privacy breaches and the worst department was TBS with over 10%.
- F Bilodeau: Network – ongoing monitoring by SSC. With regards to paper, employees are provided with guidance.
K McCauley (CPC): Do we know how many are working from home or on paid leave?
- N Chahwan: Little information at this point. Departments collecting it, data by end of month. Will provide information to you once we have it.
K McCauley (CPC): How much are we paying for for the public servants to work from home? i.e. they must be paying the internet access for employees. When will we start seeing people having access to access to information requests?
Chair: Out of time. Please provide response in writing.
F Drouin (Vice-Chair, Lib): Thanked civil servants. What measures were taken? How is the department informing civil servants on sick leave who would need to take care of their partners?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: There are mental health measures, physical health measures and access to the right tools provided. This will protect the health of their families.
- N Chahwan: Several exceptional measures were taken for the management of this crisis. Want to make sure people in dire situations can have access to services. There has to be due diligence as far as use of services.
F Drouin (Vice-Chair, Lib): Represent civil servants who work in English and French. As MPs we can see there is a need for translation services. How can public servants work in their language of choice?
- N Chahwan: This crisis is no excuse to let go of workers using their language of choice. Important to be able to work in language of choice. Respect all linguistic requirements.
Z Aboultaif (CPC): Shortages of PPE. Are you aware we had a few flights that came back empty?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: Yes and providing PPE to public servants is very important.
Z Aboultaif (CPC): Can you provide the manifest of all the flights. Air Canada and Cargo Jets. Making this request.
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: You would need to ask PSPC.
Z Aboultaif (CPC): Can you ask that department for me?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: You can reach out directly.
Z Aboultaif (CPC): Government purchase directly from suppliers or other countries. Have contracts directly with other countries?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: You would need to go to PSPC for this response.
Z Aboultaif (CPC): how are we making sure our armed forces are getting the equipment needed while they are helping?
- Hon. J-Y Duclos: that is not a question I can respond to.
Witnesses were excused. Second panel began.
Second Panel: 12:04 p.m.
Mr. Eddy Bourque, National President Canada Employment and Immigration Union: We have 2000 plus members. Our member work on the delivery of OAS , CPP and Citizenship. We have been responsible to respond to the EI influx. Our employees are mainly women. Our employees have been working in different call centres. A surge in EI claims has placed a great amount of pressure on our members. We have had an increase of verbal abuse. We want to make sure that there are enough PPEs for our members. Downtime in call, centres is inadequate. Our members have to receive the proper training. Members are reporting that they are being asked to return to unsafe working conditions. Many are still continuing to do their works while under great pressures. Communication between unions and the employers have to continue.
Mr. Chris Aylward, National President Public Service Alliance of Canada: I commend the Government for their rapid response on COVID-19. The Government had kept in regular communications with us. Our members at the CRA gave processed millions of applications for benefits. Our members are putting Canada first. 40,000 Working without a contract. The Government implemented lightning changes with the help of our members. Our member deserve a basic fair agreement. On a separate matter health and safety of our member should be brought on the front line. The Government has supported worked place mental services. Action such as the EI, CERB and CEBA have been welcomed. People are more conscious of their own vulnerability. The Government has made a great effort to support Canadians.
Ms. Sharleen Stewart, President Service Employees International Union Healthcare: The SCIU has 60,000 in the Province of Ontario. Our system of care has failed. Provinces like Ontario overlooked the Long Term Care centres. The overhaul of long term care in Canada. The death rate in for profit homes are higher than in not for profit homes. We should reveal the failings of our systems. PPEs should be available at all time. Employment in long term care facilities should be become permanent. Providing higher level of font line staff. The failed experiment of for profit homes should come to an end. Our members deserve to retire with economic security the deserve to be offered fulltime positions. When the lobbyist of the form for profit homes come knocking at your door. Think about those who have lost their loved ones in this pandemic.
Mr. Marc Brière, National President Union of Taxation Employees: The Union of Taxation Employees members are from the Canada Revenue Agency. 20,000 of these members work at the CRA. I would like to thank the employees who have stepped to help in these difficult situations. We set aside our collective bargaining with the Government to deliver the services the services that were needed. It is important for us to mention that many of the members have been assigned with new task. We implement CERB, CEWS, CCB and Tax returns. UTE was conducting strike vote before the crisis. But in the light of the increase in demand during the crisis, we suspended our ballot to support the CRA. The CRA acted quickly to provide assistance. When the CERB was implemented the CRA called on their employees to step up and the response was a huge success. Our members have also been asked to complete verification and eligibility tasks. We knew that it would be a difficult task and our members have responded happily to help-. We respectfully ask that the Federal Government to respond and act quickly to produce a fair collective agreement.
Kelly McCauley (CPC): How many of your workers are working from home? How many are working on past cases?
- Mr. Marc Brière, National President Union of Taxation Employees: On site 4500 members. And 30,000 remotely. We share the network with CBSA. We are in discussion on a work resumption plan. It look like a percentage will go back and some will still be working from home.
Kelly McCauley (CPC): What is the difference between critical and non-critical work?
- Mr. Marc Brière: Program that are considered critical are those who are processing CERB for instance.
Kelly McCauley (CPC): Will the Government be able to provide a safe environment for a return to work?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque, National President Canada Employment and Immigration Union: We have been pushing for safety and protective measures. Yes they will be able to work from home in the short term.
Kelly McCauley (CPC): What will be the average salary of your members?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: Between 20 and 50 thousand dollars.
Irek Kusmierczyk (Lib.): How have the employees of the CRA managed to strike a balance between work life and work?
- Mr. Marc Brière: The job has to be done. The CRA is used to dealing with high volumes. It depends on the individual. People are keeping in good spirits. They are holding on. It is a challenge for us.
Greg Fergus (Lib.): On race. Should we desegregate the figure for employees working Long Term Care homes?.
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart President Service Employees International Union Healthcare: We are a requesting that we have place in the this discussion with the Province of Ontario. These employees have to work, they have no choice
Julie Vignola (BQ): About ergonomics, have you had a lot of complaints from your members?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: Our members are approaching us on ways to be able to access their ergonomic equipment. The more time passes and the more we hear about ergonomic issues.
Julie Vignola (BQ): Was the employer able to accommodate these requests?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: These discussions still have to take place.
Julie Vignola (BQ): What has been the impact on Long term Care Homes with regard to Health transfers?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: There is something broken in the system. The Federal transfer needs accountability so that the money is distributed evenly.
Julie Vignola (BQ): My question was about was about a reduction of 22% of the health transfer since the 1990s. What impact has that had on Provinces?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: An increase in money would make a huge impact. More money is always welcome.
Xavier Barsalou-Duval (BQ): At the CRA in particular. Have you looked at adding staff in support of the demand?
- Mr. Marc Brière: We could really do with more people.
Matthew Green (NDP, Critic): Loss in the Long Term Care homes. 3,980 deaths of them to LTCs. How big is Chartwell?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: It is an America wide company .Their profit is 2 billion dollars a year. And they only provide about 1.9 hour of care to the seniors when it should normally be 4 hours.
Matthew Green (NDP, Critic): Lobbying efforts: Why would they lobby for extended EI?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: Paid sick days will be more beneficial to our members. Discussion on PPE and lack of support from the corporations which are financially in a position to do more and do better by their front line workers. Respect and dignity are first and foremost.
Matthew Green (NDP, Critic): What can we do federally to start a national enquiry to protect seniors?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: We should do a better job for our members and for our seniors. PPE, infection control measures needed, front line workers wearing garbage bags when the residences are owned by multinationals
Matthew Green (NDP, Critic): TBS Plan back to work for reintegration – have you been contacted consulted and are you satisfied
- Chris Aylward Just started talks on reintegration. Not seen yet, may come in the coming days, look forward to seeing the integration plan.
Witnesses excused. At 12:57.
Committee Business.
Meetings after May 15, 2020:
Proposed: Distribution of Medical Supplies (Minister of Health, Canada Post, VP Amazon, Canada Postal Services Workers union); following meeting is on Cybersecurity (Minister for Digital Government, SSC President and officials, CSEC, and A/Chief Information Officer, Mr. Bilodeau).
Whips are announcing the meetings one week in advance. Trying to obtain clarification to see if committees will meet the May 18 2020 statutory holiday.
Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates - Evidence - Number 009 - Monday, May 4, 2020
- (1400)
- [English]
- The Chair (Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC)): Welcome, colleagues. I call this meeting to order.
- Colleagues, prior to getting into the introductory remarks, I would like to point out to you that this week marks the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands and the victory in Europe. The Prime Minister has asked that at two o'clock all Canadians observe a moment of silence for our veterans who participated in the two conflicts, and I would ask all of you to please join me in a brief moment of silence before we start our meeting.
- [A moment of silence observed]
- Thank you, colleagues, and thanks to Mr. Kusmierczyk who brought this to my attention.
- Colleagues, this is meeting number nine of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. Pursuant to the order of reference of Saturday, April 11, 2020, the committee is studying the government’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
- Before we start, I would like to announce that the next meeting of this committee will be Friday, May 8, from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. eastern time. The schedule for the meetings next week has not yet been published, but it has been agreed upon by the whips. The clerk will be sending out a notice of next week's meetings very shortly.
- Lastly, in terms of instructions, we will be having 15 minutes of discussion about future witnesses at the conclusion of today's meeting. Since we have to conclude by 4 p.m. sharp, I will be drawing this meeting to a conclusion by 3:45 this afternoon. Also, colleagues, I would like you to know that the officials from the TBS and the Department of Finance have some very, very brief opening statements and so we will be devoting the entire two hours with all of the witnesses here today to questions from committee members.
- Colleagues, you are all aware of what we need to do, having participated in these virtual meetings over the last number of the weeks, but for the benefit of our witnesses I would like to remind you of a couple of quick facts if you haven't participated in virtual meetings before.
- Wait until you are recognized before you speak. Make sure that when you are speaking you unmute your microphones or we will not be able to hear you. If you are going to be speaking in English, please, in the interpretation bar at the bottom of your screens, click on the English channel. Conversely, if you are speaking in French, click on the “French” button. If you use the “floor” button, you will be able to speak in both official languages, but I suggest that if you are switching from one language to the other, you pause just for a moment to allow our interpreters to catch up.
- Also, on the subject of interpretation, I would ask that all those speaking today speak slowly and clearly so that our interpreters can translate effectively and accurately.
- Colleagues, before we get started, I ask, particularly those of you who are new to this committee, that you click on the grid at the top right of your screen. That will take you to gallery view and you will be able to see all participants in this meeting on one screen.
- We will begin our meeting.
- I will ask Mr. Purves from the Treasury Board Secretariat for any opening comments he may have, followed by officials from the Department of Finance. We'll then go directly into our questions from committee members.
- Mr. Purves, the floor is yours.
- (1405)
- Mr. Glenn Purves (Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat): Thank you, Chair.
- Actually, I don't have an opening statement to give. We'd be happy to just go directly to questions by members and to statements by our Finance colleagues.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to the Department of Finance.
- Mr. Andrew Marsland (Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance): Mr. Chair, I am the senior assistant deputy minister of the tax policy branch at Finance. Let me make some very brief opening remarks.
- First, thank you to the committee for the invitation to appear today to answer questions.
- As you know, the department has been busy supporting the government's economic response plan, and I think as the committee is also aware, we table, on a bi-weekly basis, a report on that plan with the Standing Committee on Finance. I'm sure committee members have access to that report, so I won't go through the details of it, but I'll just say that it covers many of the measures of direct support, liquidity support and support for specific sectors.
- We'd be happy to answer any questions the committee may have today. Thank you.
- The Chair: Thank you very much. We'll now go directly to questions.
- We will start with Mr. McCauley for six minutes, please.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC): Welcome, everyone. It's good to see you. I'll start my questions with Treasury Board, please.
- Mr. Purves, could you update us on the estimates process? What are the plans for the spring estimates?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: Certainly, and just in terms of when we step back, let's take it in two chunks. The first part is the main estimates. As you know, those were tabled—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I'm sorry, but could you be as brief as possible?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: That's fine.
- There was a recent motion that required us to table another appropriation act for main estimates in June and then a final one in December. For main estimates, our plan normally is that we transact in two appropriation acts. This year, we'll be transacting in three appropriation acts. We will be tabling an appropriation act in June that will provide funding until December, and then the final in December for the rest of the year.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Does the government plan to use the GG warrants authority that is provided for in Bill C-13?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: As you know, from March 13, in terms of the motion that was concluded and the change in the FAA, GG warrants can be used during a period when Parliament is adjourned—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Oh, I know they can be used, but are there plans to use them right now?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: At this juncture, I can't comment. I don't.... It's very hard to see week by week whether there is an intention to do so. The only thing I will say is that we are planning—on just part of your last question—alongside providing for full mains supply, to have tabling of supplementary estimates (A) as well.
- (1410)
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: [Technical difficulty—Editor] revisiting doing that in June.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I'm going to move on.
- What standing do the departmental plans have in the current environment?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: When you say—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: They were tabled, obviously, just about a month ago. Are these documents still valid?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: They remain valid as it pertains to the planning for the year as it pertains to the main estimates. In terms of any updates and so forth through the year, typically those are reported through the departmental results reports.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Yes, so the accountability options are still valid for the funding noted in the DPs, then.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: I think the intention is to ensure that departmental plans best reflect plans—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: As fast as possible—
- Mr. Glenn Purves: —for main estimates, but given the fact that it has been an extraordinary year that we're entering, the departmental results reports that report on this current fiscal year would take into account the extraordinary circumstances as well.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Is any or all of the COVID-19 spending undergoing the usual Treasury Board approval process?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: In any instance where Treasury Board involvement is required or there are programs or policies pertaining to the spending, Treasury Board, and through TBS, has been involved with respect to ensuring that authorities are in place. There's nothing that's been approved that is proceeding, and where it has required a TB authority to be considered or TB to consider it, it has not been considered.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Is any spending, then, going through that hasn't gone through the Treasury Board oversight process of any of the announced COVID spending?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: Well, if you take a step back, there has been an extraordinary amount of measures. When you look at what Canada—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: [Inaudible—Editor] that.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: Well, it's in different categories. If you look at the Canada emergency response benefit and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, they have self-sustaining pieces of legislation, so as a consequence, a lot of the terms and conditions pertaining to those programs have already been approved in statutes, right?
- If there's an augmentation to existing programming and it requires a consideration by TB, it has it. If it requires a consideration or a change in authorities that the minister has authority for, then they are reflected there.
- I guess the point is that, despite the fact that we face an unprecedented period, the substantive roles of the TB minister and TBS have really not changed.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay. What plans have you put in place for any added controls or new controls to oversee the spending?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: In terms of overseeing the spending, in terms of consideration—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: New controls.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: From the comptrollership standpoint, I know the comptroller general has been working closely with departments to ensure that in terms of reporting and how it's being teed up for public accounts—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I just have time for a very quick question. With regard to Treasury Board, have you been in contact with the Auditor General for their subsequent role for the oversight?
- Mr. Glenn Purves: As you know, under—
- The Chair: You have about 10 or 15 seconds, Mr. Purves. That's all.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: In the context of Governor General special warrants where a motion from March 13 requested it, absolutely.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thank you.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to Mr. Jowhari, for six minutes, please.
- Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Welcome, department officials.
- I'm going to pick up where my colleague Mr. McCauley left off and ask for bit more unpacking of that approval process.
- As we all know, the Treasury Board of Canada is responsible for approving the terms and conditions for new transfer payments and new programs. Specifically, as of March 20, the Treasury Board's capacity for emerging spending, especially emergency spending.... For example, PSPC went from $15 million to $500 million.
- Can I ask you, Mr. Purves, to unpack the whole approval process and shed some light on the fact that some of these policies and spending are evolving? We add $500 here, and a couple of days later we add another thousand for a specific group.
- Do these require constant coming back and revisiting, approval, and all of that?
- (1415)
- Mr. Glenn Purves: It's a mixed question for both us and Finance.
- Alison, do you want me to start?
- Mr. Majid Jowhari: I was hoping you'd say that.
- Mr. Glenn Purves: What I can say from our vantage point at Treasury Board.... Again, you have to remember that when we talk about spending authority—the ability to actually spend dollars—a lot of the legislation that has already been passed in Bills C-13, C-14 and C-15 provides for that authority. There is additional information— details and pieces of legislation—that also provides the policy and the program authorities pertaining to the actual spending of this funding.
- In circumstances where an existing program or transfer payment is being augmented, or in any other context, Treasury Board looks at it from the standpoint of the policy, the program authorities and the operational authorities to make sure that if there's anything in their line of sight that they need to consider with respect to what has been put on the table in terms of the spending, they will take that into account. Treasury Board meetings take place in order to examine these issues and approve them, but only where needed and where there are gaps.
- There are also considerations from many of these programs where ministers themselves have authorities to authorize and make adjustments. In those instances, the Treasury Board Secretariat works closely with the departmental community to ensure that it's done on a legal basis so that it reflects the legal mandate as set out.
- Again, there are lots of programs and lots of initiatives that are being supported. The Treasury Board role is about ensuring that from a policy standpoint, from a program authority standpoint, it's to the code.
- Alison, do you want to—?
- Mr. Majid Jowhari: Go ahead.
- Ms. Alison McDermott (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance): Hi. This is Alison McDermott from the Department of Finance.
- I agree with everything you heard Glenn say and will add that, as he mentioned, that quite a bit of the authority for this funding under the emergency response plan is coming from the statutory authority, and that, of course, has all been approved by Parliament.
- I'll just note, I think as Andrew did, that the Minister of Finance is presenting regularly to the finance committee on how the government is implementing these elements of the response plan. In fact, although I think we are required to report only on certain parts of that act, Bill C-13, we are reporting on all elements of the plan. It's something that we're going to continue to do.
- Mr. Majid Jowhari: Thank you.
- I will switch and go to a very specific constituent-based question that was put to me.
- We have about 5,000 small businesses in Richmond Hill. A lot of those small businesses are working with landlords to be able to secure their premises so they can do their business. From the feedback we are getting, a lot of landlords are not embracing the rent subsidy program being proposed by the government. Some of them don't have mortgages against that land, so they don't qualify.
- How is that being taken care of? Are there any amendments or is any consideration being given to this that you could shed some light on?
- Either Ms. McDermott or Mr. Marsland can comment.
- Ms. Leah Anderson (Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance): I can take it.
- The Chair: If I may, Ms. Anderson, we only have about 20 seconds left. If you are unable to complete your full answer in 20 seconds, I suggest that you provide a written response through the clerk to our committee members.
- I will give you 20 seconds, please.
- (1420)
- Ms. Leah Anderson: We are continuing to flesh out the program design. We are hearing the comments made by folks. That opportunity will be available to property owners without mortgages; that's very clear in the mechanisms being designed so they can also apply as well to mortgage property owners.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We will now go to Madame Vignola.
- [Translation]
- Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola (Beauport—Limoilou, BQ): Good afternoon. I'd like to ask a few questions.
- I hope that you're already looking ahead. That's what my questions presuppose.
- Of the measures already in place, which ones will need to be extended or modified in order to promote economic recovery and the employment connection?
- My question is for an official from the Treasury Board or the Department of Finance.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: I can try to answer your question.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Thank you.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Good afternoon. I'm Alison McDermott. I'm an associate assistant deputy minister at the Department of Finance.
- We find that it's early to decide to extend the measures. This is an extraordinary crisis. The support that the government has provided is very important. We hope that economic activity will resume. Of course, should the government decide to extend the measures in the coming months, it would be in a position to do so. However, it's a little early to decide that now.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Okay.
- Among the existing measures, are there any that could be modified to promote recovery and the employment connection?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: It's true that we'll have to consider these aspects. It's difficult to give information on it at the moment, but they are important considerations.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: We're experiencing something out of the ordinary. The last pandemic was 100 years ago. We realize that there are positive impacts on the environment, especially when it comes to air quality.
- Does the government intend to take steps to use the current circumstances— which are sad, but which we still have to face—to ensure a viable and responsible economic transition, both ecologically and socially?
- If that's the case, how much might such a transition cost?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: That's a very good question.
- We're thinking about the next step. Right now, our priority is to provide support to people who have lost their jobs or who can't work. We want to stop the transmission of the virus. That's why we're focusing on that.
- In the coming months, we hope to be in a situation where economic stimulus will be necessary. At that time, we could consider the measures you mentioned, including promoting investment in the economy of the future, a more sustainable economy.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Okay.
- Last week, we talked about business subsidies, and I'd like to discuss that further. There was some waffling: we said that companies using tax havens were being given subsidies, then we said the opposite.
- So I'd like to know where we stand. Are we giving subsidies to companies using tax havens? If that's the case, why aren't we stopping it? Do we have the names of these companies to tell them that we don't approve of this unethical practice? Are we there yet? If not, is there a problem that would explain why?
- (1425)
- [English]
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: The whole issue of tax evasion and tax avoidance is one on which the government has taken a number of important steps. Probably most importantly, recognizing that this is truly an international challenge, we work closely with the OECD and others in building an international architecture that helps us deal with base erosion and profit shifting. The government has invested significant amounts over the past number of years and in recent budgets in bolstering CRA's capacity to address aggressive tax planning.
- When you look at the specific measures such as the wage subsidy, in particular, this is about ensuring that employers can keep staff on, can rehire staff, and so on. That's really the objective here. One doesn't preclude the other in the sense that the objective is to preserve jobs, preserve employment, and to position the economy to revive after the crisis. That doesn't mean there aren't important steps being taken to address inappropriate tax avoidance.
- The Chair: Mr. Marsland, unfortunately, I'm going to have to interrupt you there, because we're completely over time.
- We will go now to our next intervention, from Mr. Green, for six minutes, please.
- Mr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- For the benefit of those who might be watching at home, I'll just explain that the emergency response benefit, the CERB, provides $500 per week for up to 16 weeks to workers, including selfemployed workers, who have involuntarily stopped working due to COVID-19. The government estimates that this program will cost $35 billion. On April 15, the government announced amendments to the CERB that will allow recipients to earn $1,000 per month, and will expand access to some workers and seasonal workers who have exhausted their employment insurance benefits. However, we know, from I believe it was last week or so at the Standing Committee on Finance, there are a lot of people who are still left out of this program.
- In the design of these means-based, tested programs, when you are proactively determining and identifying who is eligible for them, can you comment on who's left out?
- The time is ticking.
- The Chair: Mr. Green, could you direct your question to a specific witness?
- Mr. Matthew Green: It is to whoever is responsible for directing the program. I believe it's Mr. Marsland, if he's tax policy, or whoever is responsible for the CERB.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: I can say a few words, and I think my colleague Suzy McDonald might want to add to what I have to say.
- In terms of general design principles, the government tried to move quickly with its response, recognizing that it was important to get support out the door to those who needed it most. It has very much been focused on supporting those most affected by the crisis, and that led to the decision to develop the CERB, which is, of course, for folks who have lost their jobs or are unable to work.
- Since introducing the first tier of measures, the government has been looking at filling gaps and expanding access, as you've noted, to EI exhaustees and others. That work continues. Our sense is that we have a good deal of support out there that is very generous by international standards in the level of support being provided to them.
- Suzy might want to add a little more on other groups. I know we've added support for students recently, not through the CERB but other mechanisms. There has been a lot of support for other vulnerable members of the population, so I'll see if she wants to add anything to that.
- Mr. Matthew Green: In addition, maybe she can provide us with what the current projections are for the cost of the CERB.
- Ms. Suzy McDonald (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance): Sure. Adding to what Alison has said, we have evolved the policy of the CERB over time to ensure that it meets a broader range of people, including allowing people drawing down dividends to use that as their $5,000 of income. We've extended it to EI seasonal workers who've exhausted their benefits. They are now able to draw from their benefits and still have some income of up to $1,000. We continue to make changes with parental and maternity leave, and medical/disability leave [Technical difficulty— Editor].
- (1430)
- The Chair: Excuse me, Madam McDonald, I know that for my side your testimony is very difficult to hear.
- Mr. Green, are you able to hear clearly or is it difficult for you?
- Mr. Matthew Green: Not as much. I'm just really cautious of the six minutes that I have. I want to make sure I claim my time.
- The Chair: Sure, you'll have extra time for my intervention.
- Madam McDonald, if you could try to please speak slowly and clearly, that might assist our translation.
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: I will try my best. I won't repeat what I just said. Hopefully, you've heard most of it.
- I'm saying that we are continuing to evolve the program. The CERB is not intended to meet the needs of everyone. It was intended to be used as a complement to the existing systems.
- In addition to the CERB, there are a number of other programs we have put in place including, as Alison noted, new supports for students. We're supporting vulnerable populations through other programs, including for people living in homelessness, and providing additional support to not-for-profit organizations to help meet the needs of vulnerable Canadians.
- Perhaps just moving on to the last question, which was on the overall costing [Technical difficulty—Editor].
- The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Paul Cardegna): Mr. Chair, the interpretation's had to stop. We can't hear Ms. McDonald. I'm sorry.
- The Chair: All right. We'll take a temporary suspension.
- Mr. Green, don't worry. We'll make sure we add time to your intervention while our technicians try to clear up the sound quality.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Shall I proceed with other questions, perhaps, that other members might be able to pick up?
- The Chair: That's a great idea. If you have other questions for different witnesses, please go ahead.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Sure.
- To whomever would like to pick this up, we've heard today from Alison that we wanted to make sure that the government got the money out the door as fast as it possibly could. I couldn't agree more. Certainly, we've been calling for universally applied benefits, avenues that would put money into the pockets of Canadians as quickly as we possibly can.
- I'm sure that there must have been a consideration for a basic annual income, notwithstanding the fact that every step along the way, every policy that's put forward, there seem to be people who are left behind. What would be the net cost, after taxes, of providing a minimum basic income for all adult Canadians?
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: Perhaps I could take that one, Mr. Chair.
- That's a difficult question. I mean, you can look at it in different ways. If you gave, say, $2,000 to the almost 30 million tax filers, then the mathematics—I can't work that out in my head—it's an awful lot every month if it were $2,000.
- Really, my understanding of universal basic income is that it's not just about sending an amount to every adult. It's about, essentially, a universal amount to every adult, but also a tax system that targets that appropriately. In that context, while I appear to be avoiding the question, it's very difficult to answer the question because it goes very much to the design.
- The first part of it, the payment to every adult in the country, obviously, is extraordinarily expensive. The net cost depends on the ultimate design.
- Mr. Matthew Green: It just appears, and it's been very clear— and I'm sure every MP who has a constituency office will tell you—that for every announcement that has been made, there have been people who have been systemically left out of this process. I would agree that we need to get money into the pockets of every Canadian as fast as we can, people who need it the most, people who are here, struggling through this unprecedented time. It just seems to me that we're still overburdening the bureaucracy with complicated means testing when we have an opportunity to get that out.
- Mr. Chair, do you know how much time I have left in my questioning?
- The Chair: I've given you an extra 30 seconds, Mr. Green. You're at about six minutes and 30 seconds now.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Oh. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I guess I'll wait till the next round.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We will now go into our second round, which has five-minute durations. We will start with Mr. Aboultaif.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Good morning, everyone.
- Mr. Marsland, I have a question for you. Usually, during good economic times, the EI account claimed surpluses. What's the status now of the EI account? Is it out of money? Is it exhausted, yes or no? How much, if there are numbers that can be advised?
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: With your permission, I'll turn that question over to my colleague Alison.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Actually, I think maybe Suzy could better speak to where we stand in terms of a government policy decision on the EI rate and the timing of any increases. I can certainly say that with the difficulties in getting the EI system to function, as most folks know, we have been using the CERB as a program to support all EI-eligible people who are needing those basic supports, and so the EI system, I think, has been relying on the CERB. I think over the longer run we will be keeping track of the costs of those expenditures, and to my understanding, the decision has not yet been made about when that will be recouped.
- I don't know, Suzy, if you're able to say a bit more.
- (1435)
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Do I understand that the EI account is exhausted now, yes or no?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: It's not being used right now in the way that it normally would be, because normally when people would be unemployed they would go to the EI program and receive benefits from the account. Because of the fact that's been suspended in favour of providing those accounts through the CERB and because individuals are able to get that from either CRA or Service Canada, it's not a very good gauge right now of what's actually happening to the EI account.
- Looking at the labour force survey would probably give us a better sense of how the economy is doing.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: On the CERB account, a lot of people who are ineligible are receiving payments. Why are some people who are ineligible receiving money? What is the mechanism to ensure that those who do not qualify do not receive money?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: That's being done on an attestation basis right now, but certainly the Canada Revenue Agency, which is going to tax people on that benefit, may require proof from individuals in the future. It will be responsible for administering and enforcing the provisions of the CERB.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: How many businesses that applied for the $40,000 have received it? My understanding is that some of them have received a portion of that already. Some are waiting to see the remainder. Do you have any idea how many businesses have applied, and how much money has been committed to that specific program?
- Mr. Marsland, maybe you can answer that.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Sorry—are you talking about the Canada emergency wage subsidy or the business account?
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: It's the business account.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: That would be my colleague Leah Anderson or Soren Halverson.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The question was how many have applied for it?
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Yes.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: There have been about 520,000 applicants to date, about $20 billion worth.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: That's 520,000 applicants for $40,000. Is that correct?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: That's correct.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Okay. How much money have we spent so far? Is there any idea? Is there anyone who can tell us, on all the programs, how much money we have gone through?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: For the small-business account alone, about $20 billion in funds has been disbursed to date.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: In total for CERB and other programs, how much money have we printed so far, to spend on all the programs so far?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: My colleague Alison might be able to give you that answer.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Sorry, I don't have the number at my fingertips. Let me see if I can find it in the last report. Obviously, these are changing daily but I'll come back to you with that.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Okay, we would appreciate that. The next question is, if we continue to go on like this until the fall, how much money do you think we will need to commit to to hold us through this difficult time?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: I'll just say that in terms of the package itself that has been announced to date, it is quite a generous package of $150 billion or so of direct support, $85 billion of liquidity through the tax system, and very significant additional liquidity support under the business credit availability program. This is not the fiscal cost, but the financial value of those measures comes up to more than $500 billion. It's a very big package and we're—
- (1440)
- The Chair: Thank you very much. We're considerably over time.
- We'll now go to Monsieur Serré.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Serré, you have five minutes.
- Mr. Marc Serré (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- My first question is for the Department of Finance officials, and it has to do with access to the Canada emergency response benefit in my riding of Nickel Belt.
- Could you tell me a little more about the support that has been given recently specifically to seasonal workers and self‑employed workers with respect to their eligibility for the Canada emergency response benefit?
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: With respect to the Canada emergency response benefit, we have designed the program to ensure that those who have exhausted their employment insurance benefits by December 29 can apply for and receive the Canada emergency response benefit, including seasonal workers.
- We have also ensured that people can have up to $1,000 of employment income without losing their benefits. As I was saying earlier— I don't know if you were able to hear me—we are still reviewing and adjusting the program to ensure that people get the support they need. However, the program isn't really designed to support everyone. We have a number of programs that need to complement each other to support Canadians.
- Mr. Marc Serré: Thank you.
- My second question has to do with loans given by banks. Many of my constituents in Nickel Belt are a little worried. They are wondering if the banks are going to give the money out fast enough and if the federal government has chosen the right intermediary.
- At the Department of Finance, do you believe that the procedures in place are rigorous enough to ensure that banks channel funds directly to businesses?
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: I believe my colleague Leah Anderson will be able to answer your question.
- [English]
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The transmission was very choppy, so as I understand it, you are wondering about the processes in place by the banks to flow money to businesses and whether appropriate controls are in place. I would say, yes, the funding that is being delivered through the Canada emergency business account is being delivered in conjunction with Export Development Canada, and we work very closely with financial institutions to make sure that they have appropriate policies and procedures in place to disburse the funds appropriately.
- Mr. Marc Serré: My other question is that because of COVID-19, we have a lot of colleges, universities, a lot of the provincial areas really hurting as far as—
- The Chair: Mr. Serré, could I interrupt just for a second? Excuse me, sir. I won't dock you any time for this.
- Could please slow down your cadence, sir? The interpreters are having a bit of a difficult time following.
- Mr. Marc Serré: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- My next question is related to provincial support. We have provinces, territories and municipalities that are really struggling because of COVID-19. Is there any planned support from the federal government for the provinces? That is one question.
- Second, has the federal government looked at removing the debt ceiling for the territories?
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: I didn't hear the last part of your question. Has the federal government looked at removing what?
- [Translation]
- Mr. Marc Serré: I'm talking about borrowing limits in the territories.
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: All right. I'll answer first, then my colleague can round out my answer if she has anything to add.
- [English]
- The Government of Canada already provides significant provincial and territorial support on an ongoing basis. For example, in 2020-21, the federal government is providing $81.6 billion to provinces and territories through our major transfers. In addition to this, we provided a one-time funding payment of $500 million to provinces and territories, and that was received on March 30.
- We're working closely with the provinces and territories to really understand their economic situation and also working with municipalities, which, of course, fall under provincial jurisdiction, but with whom we are having conversations to understand their needs.
- With regard to some of the lending that's in place, perhaps Leah could add some more.
- (1445)
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Now we'll go to Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.
- Mrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- I thank our witnesses for joining us today.
- We know that Bill C-13 enacted the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act, which allows the government to spend “all money required to do anything in relation to that public health event of national concern”. They have that authority until September 30.
- I would note that the amount being spent by the government is staggering.
- While our focus in this meeting today has been on the cost of the numerous income support programs for Canadians and businesses, I'm interested in knowing how much is being spent by the Departments of Health, PSPC, and, in particular, ISED on the procurement of personal protective equipment.
- I would assume that the Department of Finance would be able to provide us with some of those numbers.
- The Chair: Mr. Marsland, or is there anyone there who—
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I am perhaps not the best person to speak to this, but I will try to answer the question.
- In our report to the finance committee, we outlined the amounts dedicated to the areas the member alluded to. The report says that the total amount is $4.4 billion. The largest amount there is for funding to purchase personal protective equipment, but there is also significant funding in there to assist the provinces and territories in the COVID-19 response on a health basis, and support for medical research into vaccine development.
- I hope that helps.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: That is $4.4 billion. Can you tell me how much is actually being spent or what kind of funding is available for manufacturers that are retooling right at this time to support our fight against COVID-19?
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I don't have that information, but perhaps we can endeavour to find out what information is available and provide it to the committee.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Okay, I would appreciate that very much.
- Recent reports in the media have tagged our deficit at approximately $252.1 billion this year. I know there are questions concerning the sustainability of the programs we have announced, legislated and are now implementing.
- Can you tell me how far the amount of money we have announced and are willing to spend this year will take us in our fight against COVID-19?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Sure, I can look at that.
- As mentioned, the authorities in terms of direct support measures come to approximately $150 billion. It really varies, measure by measure, how long or over what period those are expected to be expended.
- Some of the big ones, like the Canada emergency response benefit, are available for a longer period of time. If you were on that benefit early in March, I think it would expire within four months, so we're looking at mid-June for that one. I think the CEWS goes through to July, so they're staggered.
- As I said before, it's a bit early to have a strong sense of which ones and to what degree some of these may need to be extended. In either case, we wouldn't expect that they would be used at the same level or scope they're being used now. They're expected to be in that —
- (1450)
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Unfortunately, Mrs. Block, we're completely out of time, but we will have additional time in future rounds.
- We will now go to Madam Ratansi.
- Welcome back to our committee.
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): Thank you very much.
- My questions are going to be directed to Finance.
- I have a lot of small and medium-sized enterprises that are not eligible to access the CEBA because they issued T4As rather than T4s. When I look at the CRA definition of income, T4s, T4As, T5s, all become income.
- Could you give me the logic behind why these guys cannot access the CEBA, number one?
- Number two, some sole proprietorships or enterprises are giving themselves dividends. Even if they give themselves $20,000 worth of dividends, they don't qualify for the CEBA. If you could give me some of the logic behind it, I'd really appreciate it.
- Thanks.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: Since we launched CEBA, we've been taking a good look at it and it is based on payroll. Since we launched CEBA we have expanded the range of entities that are able to apply, from $20,000 up to $1.5 million in payroll.
- We are very aware of the issue you raised, that some did not qualify, and we are taking a very close look at that to see what additional supports are appropriate for those circumstances. Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: If they issue a T4A, it is income, so what do I tell them? Should I tell them that you're taking a look at it, or what?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: We are closely assessing the issue. We're aware of the concerns and are trying to make the benefit available to the widest range of small businesses that have these kinds of fixed costs and need the extra support.
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: Okay.
- My second question regards the rent relief. How is it working with the provinces? I ask because certain small landlords don't have any mortgages and don't think they should take advantage of this commercial rent relief, so they don't give relief to their tenants. What should we do about it? How do I convince my businesses to stay open or to take advantage of this when the landlord is probably not willing to take advantage of it?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: Since the Prime Minister announced the measure in late April, CMHC came up with further details on their website last week. They have indicated on it that if a landlord does not have a mortgage, they should contact CMHC to go through a different mechanism. We are working on an alternative mechanism for those who do not have mortgages.
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: What is the province doing about those who have mortgages, but do not wish to participate?
- If we want to kickstart the economy, we know that we need to keep these businesses alive and well, and these are small proprietors like acupuncturists or massage therapists, a whole plethora of these businesses. Is there any understanding we can give to these businesses to say, here is something you can look at? I tell them to negotiate with their landlord, but it's beyond federal control.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The federal government is doing this program in partnership with the provinces. We cost shared 75%-25% with the provinces. As you said, it's very important for landlords and their tenants to work together to find appropriate solutions. This program will provide a real opportunity to provide the relief that tenants need at this time. It is directed to tenants who have had a 70% revenue decline—those who are most challenged in these circumstances.
- (1455)
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: Okay.
- Now I come to the CERB. I have individuals, sole proprietors, who did not pay themselves any wages, and now with COVID-19 they probably cannot show $5,000 in employment income. What do they do? They have no income anymore.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I'll turn that question on CERB over to my colleague.
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: Okay.
- The Chair: Because we are completely out of time, I would ask, if you can, that you provide that answer to our committee members in writing. You can give that to our clerk so that we can distribute the response to all committee members.
- Ms. Yasmin Ratansi: Thank you.
- The Chair: Thank you, Madame Ratansi.
- We will now go to two-and-a-half-minute interventions, starting with Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
- Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes— Verchères, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- My first question is for the Department of Finance officials.
- I've heard fairly frequently from seasonal workers who are afraid they won't be able to access employment insurance or the CERB this year. Changes have been made, but these workers are wondering about next year. If their work season doesn't happen, if they aren't able to pay into employment insurance or if they don't get enough hours of work to receive employment insurance benefits, does that mean they'll have to get through the winter without any other income?
- That raises an important question. I want to know if the Department of Finance has thought about it and if it will come up with a solution soon.
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: We're aware of this issue because we've heard about it from many stakeholders. It's an issue of concern to us. Our colleagues at Employment and Social Development Canada are looking at it as well.
- We can give you a full answer later.
- Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval: Thank you.
- My second question is also for the Department of Finance officials, but it has a public policy and taxation aspect to it.
- When someone has an income of more than $1,000, they aren't entitled to the full CERB amount. Obviously, this measure was put in place to ensure that people don't just go to work a few hours in order to benefit from the CERB.
- As the economy recovers and the lockdown ends, some people may refuse to go to work or may have little incentive to return to work. In some cases, employers won't need a full‑time employee because the demand won't be great enough. Instead, the employer may be looking to hire a part‑time employee.
- Will changes be made to the CERB program to ensure that people don't lose everything?
- We need to ensure that employers aren't understaffed and that programs put in place to help employees aren't detrimental to them.
- [English]
- The Chair: Please give a very brief answer, if possible.
- [Translation]
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: We're looking into that situation. As far as the CERB is concerned, we're hearing about what's working and what isn't working so well. We're always reviewing the programs in order to improve them.
- [English]
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Mr. Green, the floor is yours.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- We've heard quite compellingly that there has been work with provinces and a 25%-75% split for commercial small business rent relief. If we can work with the provinces to figure that out for small businesses, why wasn't this extended to renters in the residential market?
- This is for the Department of Finance or whoever answered the question around—
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I can take that one.
- Generally speaking, rent is an area of provincial jurisdiction. I think the first question asked what the provinces are doing. Many provinces have taken steps to provide rent relief for residential tenants. For example, in British Columbia there is quite an extensive program, and others have one as well.
- In this area for small businesses, given some of the greater systemic impacts, the Government of Canada made a decision to enter into this partnership to fill a bit of the gap.
- (1500)
- Mr. Matthew Green: That being said, we're hearing from municipalities. I'm a former city councillor. There are infrastructure projects across the country that are split a third-a third-a third.
- Would the federal government be willing to assume all construction costs for any infrastructure that relates to stimulus funding as we transition out of COVID and look to reopen and restart the economy?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I'll turn that one over to my colleague, Evelyn, but I think it's very early to say what we will do in a recovery. We are certainly looking at all options to restart on a solid footing.
- Over to you, Evelyn.
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch, Department of Finance): That is exactly the answer I would have given. Certainly, infrastructure is one of the tried and tested stimulus levers. At an appropriate time we would be turning our minds to such things that have worked in the past to stimulate the economy, but we really still need to see our way through the current stabilization and restart activities.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Okay, this is a bit of a strange one. I picked up on this under part 8 of Bill C-13. The Minister of Finance is basically allowed to establish a corporation or entity for the purposes of promoting stability in the financial system.
- What is the purpose of the authority to establish a corporation or entity to promote stability in the financial system?
- The Chair: Unfortunately, while it's an excellent question, I'm going to have to ask that the response be given in written form through our clerk to our committee members because we're completely out of time.
- We'll be going now into the second round of questions for the second hour, starting again with Mr. McCauley for six minutes, please.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks, Chair.
- Ms. Anderson, I want to follow up on the question that Ms. Ratansi had about the CEBA, and we heard the answer repeated again on other issues: “We're looking at it, we're looking at it, we're aware of it”. Will we actually have a response to these issues? When will we actually see something, a change around the issues that Ms. Ratansi brought up, regarding the CEBA for those who have been blocked from receiving support? I'm not saying to you specifically, but we have to do more than just say, “We're looking at it, we're aware of that.”
- When will we actually see a response?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I can assure you that it's very much front of mind of the government in terms of responding to this question, and we're working on it as we speak.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay, but you just repeated what I was asking about. When will we have a response? It's not enough to tell Canadians that “We're looking at it”, hand over heart. When will we actually see a response to this, or will there not be a response to it and we can move on to something else?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I will just reiterate that it is a very important question that we are examining.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: All right, thanks.
- For Finance, the Bank of Canada and the PBO both published updated economic forecasts. PBO has published its fiscal forecast. When will we see Finance releasing theirs?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: We are definitely starting the process of looking at all of the scenarios for the economy. I think we would note that even the Bank of Canada, in its last monetary policy outlook, did not come up with kind of a point estimate, and that's usually what we use for the purpose of fiscal forecasting. A lot of private sector actors are out there with certain numbers for, you know, Q2 and expecting some—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I'd like an answer to the question. When will Finance be publishing something for that?
- (1505)
- Ms. Alison McDermott: We're not able to give you a definitive time frame at this point, but we're definitely looking at scenarios.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thank you.
- Has Finance looked at scenarios, then, for bailouts or assistance packages for specific industries such as the oil energy industry, the hospitality industry, the airline industry? Have you started putting numbers together for that? If not, have you got numbers put together on what the fallout will be if there is not assistance to those industries?
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: I'll pick up from Alison.
- Broad-based economic supports have been rolled out by the government that are relevant to the vast proportion of Canadian businesses, so the first effort was those responses of general applicability across government in lead portfolios for the last seven or eight weeks now, in terms of the crisis. There has been quite detailed work, engagement, outreach with stakeholders, by the lead portfolios and ministers, and there's quite a fair bit of sectoral intelligence- gathering and understanding around restart. There has been an ongoing surveillance of gaps in the programs on general applicability as well, and any of the iterative improvements to those programs have reflected that intelligence.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: You're using up my time.
- I'm looking specifically for an answer. Has Finance put together scenarios, considerations specifically for the airline industry, the hospitality industry, the energy industry, to put together specific support packages for them? If not, have they looked at the scenario of what will happen to those industries and the economy if support is not provided and they implode?
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: I suppose that in terms of what I was trying to convey, though perhaps not succinctly, was that programs of general applicability are doing very much to support the sectoral challenges that are arising, such as labour bills, for example, and just general liquidity. I was going to offer—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: [Technical difficulty—Editor] liquidity is the issue. None of these programs are addressing that. My question again goes back to that. Is Finance looking at scenarios for such support?
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: About two weeks ago, the government did announce a package of small business and sectoral assistance measures, which included a few targeted measures for the energy sector. You might be familiar with those already.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Yes.
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: Very briefly, they included $1.72 billion in support—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I'm going to move on, please.
- Has Finance done any forecasting models with new revenue sources, such as higher personal, higher income or corporate taxes and changes to the GST?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: I'm sorry. Are you asking if we're contemplating increases in these taxes at this point?
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Have you done forecasting models?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Well, generally over the year we do this kind of analysis, but nothing of late. Nothing of that nature is being contemplated.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks very much.
- The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Drouin, please, for six minutes.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Francis Drouin (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- I'd like to thank all the witnesses present for our virtual committee meeting.
- My first question is for the witnesses from the Treasury Board and the Department of Finance. As you know, when a government program is announced, there is usually a long consultation process. In this case, we didn't have an opportunity for that consultation. So I'd like to know how you reorganized your organization and how you worked with other departments to deliver the benefits.
- We recognize that the benefits aren't perfect, which is why the consultation is important. I know that opposition members and other stakeholders across Canada have said that self‑employed workers and people who collect a non‑eligible dividend, for example, have been forgotten.
- Can you tell me a little bit about how you proceeded?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Thank you for your question.
- [English]
- Just to outline the way that most of the spending proposals get examined within the Department of Finance, we do receive them from line departments. These are the departments that are closest to the industry groups, stakeholders and NGOs and so on, so they are in constant communication with those segments of civil society or the private sector in terms of what their needs are. We get proposals from them. They tend to be looked at by the Department of Finance, advice is provided to the minister and the Prime Minister and, of course, decisions are taken by them. We work with TBS in order to implement those measures.
- I should note that of course measures relating to the financial sector policy and to direct taxation are internally generated proposals, but we have a lot of.... Andrew could talk more to this, as could Leah. We hear from and have been working quite a bit with the private sector in the development of those measures.
- Maybe Leah could tell you a bit more at this point. I know that there has been a lot of collaboration with the financial sector and other members of the private sector in the development of some of the financial measures.
- (1510)
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I can start with the financial measures that we announced at the beginning of the crisis. We worked very collaboratively with the financial sector agencies, such as the Bank of Canada, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions and the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation. You may be aware that a number of measures were announced, and those were based on what we were hearing from the business sector in terms of what was needed and from financial institutions as well. For example, the Bank of Canada put in place a number of facilities to promote market functioning and also to promote the liquidity of financial institutions.
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I can add to that at this time, Mr. Chair.
- The Chair: Certainly. Please go ahead.
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: It's a very interesting question. I'd begin by saying, there's no playback, obviously this kind of crisis is unprecedented, and so on. If we take one example, the wage subsidy, we developed that obviously very quickly. Normally one would develop that over the basis of many months of work and consultation. For a timely and relevant response, that's not possible. We did benefit from a lot of engagement in between releasing the first backgrounder and the passage of the legislation, and continued to benefit from input from industry associations, from specific firms, from parliamentarians, from a whole range of people we talked to in a very compressed time frame. I think the important thing is to listen and to adapt as we get that input. I think we have done that so far. No doubt we'll continue to get input on these programs.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Francis Drouin: Thank you very much for your answers.
- Mr. Chair, I don't know if I have enough time left to get back to my questions.
- [English]
- The Chair: You have about a minute and a half, Mr. Drouin.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Francis Drouin: I had said that it seems that many entrepreneurs don't qualify for the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA, and that they don't want to record non‑eligible dividends. I know that these dividends can be counted for the Canada emergency response benefit, but not for access to the $40,000 emergency loan from the CEBA. You're working hard on this issue, and I hope we can find a solution as soon as possible.
- [English]
- The Chair: A brief answer, please. We have about 30 seconds.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I want to reiterate that we really hear the voice of the committee today in terms of the need to deal with that issue for small business.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to Ms. Vignola.
- [Translation]
- You have six minutes, Ms. Vignola.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: I want to thank you very much for all these answers or, at least, the announcement of future research.
- As soon as the crisis began, a 10% wage subsidy was announced. Then there was the 75% Canada emergency wage subsidy. Does that replace the 10% subsidy, or are these amounts complementary? I'd like to have a better understanding of these two subsidies. Together, how much will these two subsidies ultimately cost?
- [English]
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: The first program, the Canada emergency wage subsidy, the 10% one, applies to all small businesses, at least those businesses eligible for the small business deduction, as well as charities and non-profit organizations. All of those businesses are eligible for it. The mechanism of how that works is they deduct that 10% from the amounts they would otherwise remit to the Canada Revenue Agency on account of their employees' tax. Let's just say, it's targeted at small businesses regardless of whether or not they suffered a decline in revenues, but to help them manage in this unprecedented crisis.
- The 75% wage subsidy applies only to those firms that have suffered a 15% reduction in revenues from March 2019 to March 2020, or 30% in April. It's targeted at those corporations regardless of their size, and charities and non-profits that have been specifically affected. One is offset by the other, so the maximum is 75%. If a small business is eligible for the 10% and the 75%, then the maximum is the 75%. They complement each other, but they are applied to different populations.
- A projection of the cost estimate of the 75% wage subsidy is $73 billion over the course of the subsidy. We would reduce the estimate for the 10% wage subsidy when [Technical Difficulty—Editor].
- (1515)
- The Chair: Mr. Clerk, I cannot hear anything at all. Can we perhaps stop right here while our technicians take a look? If we cannot, then I would ask that Madame Vignola perhaps ask a question to a different witness.
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I think it's working now.
- Did you not hear any of my response?
- The Clerk: We heard some. It got cut off near the end, unfortunately.
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: Yes. Normally people look puzzled when they can't hear me.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: We heard your answer up to the point where you talked about the $73 billion. We didn't hear the rest.
- [English]
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I apologize.
- The cost of the 75% wage subsidy is projected to be $73 billion. The original cost of the 10% was over $4 billion, but we have reduced that to $975 million because of the way the two measures work together, and since you can't have both, the cost of the 10% original wage subsidy has been reduced.
- I hope that's clear.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Yes, thank you.
- I'll come back briefly to tax havens. From what I understand, we don't have a clear list of Canadian companies that use tax havens, which is unfortunate given the amounts invested in research in that regard.
- What is the estimated amount of money that we miss out on annually and doesn't end up in our coffers because of tax havens?
- [English]
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: First of all, I think the challenge is that there is no kind of internationally accepted list regarding what is a tax haven. There are lists that various international organizations have established of non-co-operative jurisdictions, those that don't meet the standards of transparency and so on. Those tend to be fairly short lists.
- There are other perceptions of low-tax jurisdictions, which some people might consider tax havens or which might be so called in common parlance. There's no common terminology accepted throughout the world as to what is a tax haven.
- The Canada Revenue Agency has done estimates of the tax gap, and I can undertake to ask my colleagues at the Canada Revenue Agency to provide those. Those are not necessarily responsive to your question entirely, because there are tax gaps on the corporate side and so on that include more than just what one might consider planning and tax havens.
- (1520)
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Okay.
- Right now, the floodgates are open. In a way, we're managing to borrow phenomenal amounts of money to help the public. We all agree that the crisis can drag on.
- What can we do to prevent a second wave?
- If a second wave comes, will we be strong enough to help the public as we are doing now?
- How can we prevent that?
- [English]
- The Chair: Could we have another very brief answer if possible, please?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Maybe I could attempt that one.
- As you probably know, the decisions about the restart of the economy are really being driven by health-based considerations, and being made largely at the provincial level, so there's a great deal of collaboration between those levels of government to try to make sure those decisions are well supported and that we don't have a resurgence.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Mr. Green, you have six minutes.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- According to the Department of Finance's third biweekly report on parts 3, 8 and 18 of Bill C-13, the estimated financial impact of direct measures for individuals, businesses, tax liquidity support, and other liquidity supports is around $586.5 billion.
- How is the government financing all of these new benefits and measures, and are they financed through short-term or long-term financial instruments?
- Maybe Mr. Marsland, a tax policy guy, or somebody from the Department of Finance could answer.
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I can take that.
- We work very closely with the Bank of Canada, which is our fiscal agent, to issue government debt to finance the spending that is occurring. The tenure of the debt falls across the different options that we have, including T-bills of two years, five years and 30 years. We have calibrated that program appropriate to the response.
- We certainly are benefiting from the extraordinarily low interest rates that we're currently facing. Indeed, going into this crisis we were in the best fiscal position of all the G7 countries, so we are benefiting from that status as well.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I'm certainly not an economist, but we're hearing new theories, things that might not be traditional, like modern monetary theories. Has there been any discussion around ways, subsequent to Mrs. Vignola's point, that, if we see this again, we certainly can, under the traditional framework, continue to borrow in the way that we do? Have new fiscal theories been bandied about or explored in your department?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: Again, going back to how we went into this crisis, we had very sound fiscal capacity, and we do work very closely with the Bank of Canada to explore what the best opportunities are. In working with them and projecting out our financial requirements, we were able to develop a borrowing program that's appropriate for Canada.
- Mr. Matthew Green: In one of the earlier comments, and I can't recall who to attribute it to, I heard about adding to the liquidity of financial institutions. How much liquidity have we added to financial institutions?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The Bank of Canada has launched a number of facilities that enable what we call “repos” or the exchange of securities for liquidity. All told, I think it was in the range of $550 billion.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Just for the purpose of the viewers who are out there, what does that look like? Is that a transfer from the Bank of Canada to financial institutions to be able to provide them with financial stability?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: It's not a transfer to the financial institutions; it's providing liquidity to the market. They have various securities in their books, and they exchange them to the Bank of Canada on a short-term basis, and they provide the liquidity.
- Similarly, one of these measures is what we call the “domestic stability buffer”. OSFI provided some capital relief to financial institutions, and this freed up another $300 billion of liquidity for financial sector institutions to be able to provide credit to the economy for support at this time.
- (1525)
- Mr. Matthew Green: At the risk of sounding really foolish, we heard about, in the States in 2007, the process of quantitative easing. Is that what you're doing, supporting the markets through this process?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: I wouldn't necessarily call it quantitative easing. There are different strategies and approaches, but the facilities that we have do enable a greater liquidity.
- An important thing was recently done with provincial governments. As they're also issuing debt and going to the market in unprecedented times, the Bank of Canada launched a facility to purchase, on a temporary basis, some of their debt to, again, help with the smooth functioning of the market. These are all very much well-functioning market measures so that the market remains liquid and available to provide credit to business at this time.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I'm going to go back to a question I had in the first round, which is this really interesting thing about establishing a corporation or an entity for the purposes of promoting stability in the financial system. Can you comment on that? What is the purpose of the authority to establish a corporation?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: This power, in fact, builds on a power that was provided in the financial crisis, and the Minister of Finance, during that time, was provided the authority to enter into a contract with an entity to provide a loan, a line of credit or a guarantee to an entity. In this very unprecedented time, and our being able to or needing to be able to respond as required, as circumstances warrant, it was deemed appropriate to not just make a guarantee, loan or purchase an entity, but to create one through the government as another tool for financial stability if it's warranted in this time.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Do the corporation letters patent of Canada Post allow, through postal banking, for a similar process?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: That's a different question. That's not related to this provision.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Fair enough. Thank you very much. I'm watching with interest, and I appreciate the fullness of your answers.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to the five-minute round of questions starting with Mr. Aboultaif for five minutes, please.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Thank you very much.
- My next question is on the CECRA program. The government will put 50%, the landlord will put 25% and the business owner will put 25%. It seems like the landlords are not participating or are refusing to participate in the program. There are a lot of businesses basically facing shutdown, and they cannot come up with the money. We've been receiving a lot of calls in that regard.
- Was this program communicated to the real estate owners, the landlords, before it came out? Was there any understanding of this program coming to light so that at least we don't end up with a situation that we're in right now?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The program is expected to launch in mid- May. CMHC will be administering the program, and is working carefully on the program parameters. We are hearing a lot from both landlords and tenants about the operationalization of that program. We've heard from many landlords that they find it's a great opportunity. Otherwise they would have been faced, perhaps, with tenants being able to pay nothing, those who have been deemed non-essential forced to close or have significant revenue decline. They look at this as an opportunity to help weather this crisis.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: So when we're talking about the revenue decline, you pick the 70% decline in business. How did you come up with that figure? Why isn't it 60%? Why isn't it 65%, for example?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: We wanted to make an amount that was material but not zero, because if a company is facing zero non-essential for us to close, they might not be able to bridge the period. So it's an assessment. If they face that amount of a drop they would have more difficulty paying for that time, and with access to CEBA, for example, would then also be able to pay their 25% of the rent and be relieved of 75%.
- (1530)
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: So the 70% was not based on any economic or financial measures. It just may be a number that sounds good. Some businesses have lost more than 70%. Of course some of them shut down completely. Some of them are still having some activity.
- How much money did you think you would need to spend on this program?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: It will ultimately depend on take-up, but we're estimating it will be approximately $2 billion in loans.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Is that on a monthly basis?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: No, this is for the full program.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: And that considers how many months?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: That's for three months.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Three months, $2 billion should be enough to be able to serve this program. Is that correct?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: That's our estimate, that it would be approximately that amount.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Okay. With commercial landlords, the tenant applies. Do they apply to CMHC? Where do they apply? Whom do they need to convince in this fashion to be able to qualify?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: CMHC will be leading the delivery of the program, and they'll release details about the interface to apply once this becomes operational in the next couple of weeks. They've set up a website where businesses can now get further information on how they would apply.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: At this point, we don't know what the deal is between CMHC and the landlords, do we?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: The landlords would be in contact with CMHC to avail themselves of this program.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: If the banks were called to deliver on that program, would that be a better option?
- Ms. Leah Anderson: Our assessment is that CMHC is well prepared to deliver this.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: At this moment why is CMHC not getting involved to solve the refusal of the landlords to adapt or work with the program, and who's got the authority to ask CMHC to act accordingly?
- The Chair: Unfortunately once again we're completely out of time. Ms. Anderson, or whoever has a response to Mr. Aboultaif, please provide it in writing to our clerk, and then we can distribute it to the committee.
- Colleagues, we've got just over 10 minutes left.
- As I mentioned, at 3:45 p.m. I'd like to excuse our witnesses so we can then talk about the witnesses and the work plan and study for the week of May 11. Therefore, we will have two more fiveminute interventions, starting with Mr. Kusmierczyk, followed by Mrs. Block, and unfortunately, Mr. Jowhari, it looks like you've drawn the short straw.
- We have to adjourn our meeting at 4 p.m. sharp to allow the technicians to prepare for the next meeting.
- We'll go now to Mr. Kusmierczyk. You have five minutes, please, sir.
- Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk (Windsor—Tecumseh, Lib.): Thank you very much, Chair.
- Under normal times, thousands of Canadians who are on employment insurance can also benefit from the supplemental unemployment benefit, SUB. That's basically a top-up provided by the employer. It's a formal agreement between the employers, the unions and the government as well. Currently, under the CERB the SUBs are not permitted.
- What is Finance's position on the issue of the supplemental unemployment benefits, and what are some of the key considerations?
- Ms. Suzy McDonald: As you noted, the SUB plans are not being used at the moment. Part of the reason for this is that we are not using the EI system in the way it's traditionally been used. We have moved people to applying for the CERB through the Canada Revenue Agency or through Service Canada, and moved into that CERB usage instead of the EI system. As such, the idea here really is to make sure that we are meeting the needs of Canadians in an urgent time, suspending some of the ways in which EI has traditionally worked.
- I know that ESDC has had a number of conversations around the SUB plan. They are the policy lead for this.
- (1535)
- Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk: Thank you. I just wanted to know whether Finance had any position or any considerations on this particular issue. I'll move on to the next questions.
- In terms of the CEWS, the wage subsidy program, can you tell me how many employees are actually utilizing this program? As well, what impact will this have on our ability to recover once the economy is opened up?
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: I would prefer to consult with my colleagues at the CRA, as these numbers change all the time in terms of how many employees. I believe the last number I saw was 1.7 million, but I will get back to you. The program just opened for applications last Monday. It changes all the time. Perhaps I can commit to getting back to the committee with an update. It will be out of date, unfortunately, as soon as I give it to you, but I can give you the newest information.
- The second part of your question is an important one. It goes to the heart and the purpose of the program, which is to encourage employers to retain, to rehire and to avoid layoffs in order to be positioned to restart things as quickly as possible and preserve that productive capacity in the economy. That's really the objective of the measure. We think it will be an important contributor toward recovery.
- Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk: Great. Thank you.
- The Canadian Federation of Independent Business did a survey of about 8,000 of its members. It found that about a third of its membership will have a shortfall of about $10,000 in the next 30 days. That's when they take into consideration all the government benefits and all the revenue they're bringing in, obviously minus all the costs they're facing.
- What indicators are we looking at to see whether the programs as designed are actually working, and specifically in the case of some of the programs directed at businesses?
- Mr. Andrew Marsland: That's an excellent question. I think we have been operating very much in real time in terms of developing these programs as the situation has developed. We are looking at take-up, obviously. We're looking at the feedback we get. We speak to a lot of associations and companies to understand exactly how these programs are working for them. There have been adjustments. While I can't speculate on the future, I think we'll continue to consider whether adjustments are required.
- Clearly, we're tracking very closely the take-up of these programs. We are engaging with the finance committee on almost a weekly basis, if not every two weeks. I think we'll continue to track and look at the data and, importantly, seek input from Canadians across the country.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Mrs. Block, you have five minutes.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- I have one really quick question in follow-up to the previous questions I was asking. I think it was Ms. McDermott who was answering my question.
- I want a really short answer about the generous package you've referenced, which was announced to address what we are experiencing with COVID-19. Was that meant to be a medium-term solution, a long-term solution or a short-term solution?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: I think it's short- to medium-term in the sense that some of those measures will have a duration of a few months. Do you want me to talk—
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Thank you. That answers my question.
- I want to turn the rest of my time over to my colleague Mr. Mc‐ Cauley. I echo his concerns around some of the industries he was asking about, in terms of some sort of package for them. Could I do that, Mr. Chair?
- (1540)
- The Chair: Certainly.
- Mr. McCauley, you have the remaining time, approximately four minutes.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Great. Thank you, Mrs. Block.
- With respect to Finance, 40 days ago now, of course, Finance Minister Morneau announced that support for the energy industry was “hours, possibly days away”. Now, we saw a small bit for the cleanup of wells, which is not going to help the overall industry. When are we actually going to see a support package for the vital oil and gas industry?
- Governor Poloz from the Bank of Canada noted it's going to be one of the main driving factors leading us into recovery, but it has to exist if it's actually going to help Canada recover.
- When are we going to see the support package promised by Mr. Morneau? If you don't have an answer precisely, please just state that and we'll move on to other questions.
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: On energy support, the announcement of April 17, in addition to the wells and the emissions fund, there was also a reference to new financing products to be offered by Export Development Canada and the Business Development Bank of Canada. They are a specific response to the particular financing challenges in the energy sector—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Is that the extent of it, then, or will there be more coming?
- Ms. Evelyn Dancey: The government's response has been iterative, and so it is believed that these instruments will be very relevant, again, for the vast number of companies in the sector. These are mid-sized companies with larger financing needs than had previously been addressed under BCAP.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: When he said “hours, possibly days”, he's referring now to the April 17 announcement. Thanks.
- Let me just ask you, please, to Finance, with the recent drop of interest rates and obviously the change to the discount rate, how much higher are we going to see the deficit this year because of the change for the discount rates with the public service pensions?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: As mentioned, we will be providing a fiscal update at some time in the near future, but we can't give you details on that yet. At that time, when we come out with either an update or a budget, you'll have detailed information on those forecasts.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay. Has finance looked at the issues of the unfunded liabilities of any of the public service pension funds, for example, the public service investment board or Canada Post, the issues with their unfunded liabilities? I'm sure they're going to get slammed even more with the drop in the equity markets.
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Yes, many of those have been affected by equity market changes recently. I don't have that at my disposal, but we have been in touch. My understanding is that we are not doing too badly. We'll see if we come back with information for the [Inaudible—Editor]
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: You're breaking up too much. Could someone else answer the question? Is that something you can get back to the committee on?
- Ms. Alison McDermott: Yes. We'll see if we can come back to you with some more details on that.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay.
- As for the hidden, so to speak, debt of the Crown corporations, which is generally not announced when we talk about the overall public debt, how is that changing from pre-COVID to the current situation? Obviously, they're getting hit, whether on pensions or VIA taking a big revenue hit. How large is the increase in the Crown corp debt that we're seeing year over year?
- The Chair: I apologize. It seems that we never have enough time to fully get questions and answers on the record, so we ask whoever wishes to address Mr. McCauley's question to provide an answer in writing to our clerk so that we can submit that answer to our committee members.
- With that, I will now thank and excuse all of our witnesses while the rest of the committee sticks around to deal with some committee business. I remind all committee members that we will be in public.
- Once again, to the TBS and Department of Finance officials, thank you very much. You are excused.
- Colleagues, the purpose of this, is to talk about the witnesses coming the week of May 11, which is next week.
- May 11 from 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m. will be the first meeting
- Friday, May 15 from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. will be the second meeting. All times are eastern.
- I would ask Raphaëlle—if you want—to start with a précis of the work plans that we have established so far, and then we can ask committee members if they have any additional witnesses they wish to suggest.
- Raphaëlle.
- (1545)
- Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe (Committee Researcher): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.
- What we suggest for next week is the fifth meeting on the delivery of emergency benefits, and that would be with both Minister Qualtrough and Minister Lebouthillier.
- Then, for Friday, we suggest meeting number six on the national emergency strategic stockpile and federal procurement. That would be with representatives from PHAC and PSPC.
- The Chair: Now we'll just go straight into comments or observations from any committee members.
- Mr. McCauley.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks, Raphaëlle. I appreciate that.
- For the one with PSPC, is Mr. Matthews included in that? I know we requested to have him back.
- Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe: Yes, there will be Mr. Matthews and also Ms. Arianne Reza from PSPC.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I think we should also ask the minister to come back to answer these pressing questions in regard to some of the issues with Amazon and Canada Post, as well as the flip-flopping of the department on some of the PPE issues that were answered here and then contradicted in the House, contradicted by Mr. Matthews, and then contradicted again by her press secretary.
- Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe: If I may, Mr. Chair, I would just like to clarify that Mr. McCauley would like the Minister of PSPC, Minister Anand.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: That's correct, thank you.
- Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): How is this supposed to roll out, Chair? I know that Minister Lebouthillier is coming. What do the next three or four meetings look like?
- The Chair: The work plan has been submitted to all committee members—
- Mr. Steven MacKinnon: Yes, I apologize; I know it has. I'm staring at your face as opposed to it.
- The Chair: Oh, that's why.
- As we all know, the committees are masters of their own agendas. Should there be subsequent or additional witnesses we haven't even considered yet that the committee would like to invite, based on testimony that we're about to hear or yet to hear, we can certainly continue the study as long as we wish.
- I'm just suggesting that at this point in time at least, if there are no objections, we'll continue with the meeting work plan that Raphaëlle and the other analysts have suggested. Should a committee member want to take 10 or 15 minutes at the end of a meeting to discuss additional witnesses and future work and studies, we can certainly do that. I look at this as a very fluid, ongoing study that may have several other elements the further we get along into it.
- At this point in time, I think all that we have to go on, colleagues, is the work plan that has already been presented to all of you. If there are other comments on that, or suggestions on how we can proceed, I'd love to hear them.
- Mr. Francis Drouin: Chair, I have a quick comment on prioritizing our witnesses. I don't have an issue with reinviting some of the witnesses, but I would first like to hear from those we haven't had the opportunity to hear from. Then, if we do feel that we need to hear from other witnesses for a second time, and perhaps a third or fourth time, we can surely send out another invitation.
- My second comment has to do with the work that other committees are also doing. I think all of us here have expressed some concerns. We just don't want to be redundant in terms of what the other committees are doing. I would defer to the analysts to say which particular witnesses have been heard at some other committee, unless it was a month and a half ago or something. Then, perhaps there's value in having them in front of our committee. However, in the spirit of redundancy, I would say, let's hear from those who haven't had the opportunity to come forward yet.
- The Chair: Francis, I agree, particularly with your initial comment about prioritizing those ministers who have not appeared before this committee yet. With regard to those committee members who wish to see a minister reappear, we could perhaps put those appearances off until further down the line.
- I also agree with your comments.
- Raphaëlle, this is perhaps dumping a bit much on your plate and Ryan's plate, but could you take a look at some of the other committees that are currently meeting and do a quick overview of the witnesses and some of the people they're bringing forward, and recommend to our committee, then, if there are any witnesses who would perhaps be redundant? We don't want to have meetings just for the sake of having a meeting. If we don't have to hear witnesses who have already provided testimony in other settings, I think that would probably be the wise course of action. Having said that, if there are witnesses we have not heard from yet and committee members think they would be vital to our study, let's get those names in as quickly as we can to our clerk and our analysts.
- Mr. McCauley, go ahead.
- (1550)
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I appreciate Mr. Drouin's comment; I don't want us to meet just for the sake of meeting. That being said, I would like us to take a look at it before we zap anyone as duplicating.
- We saw today in committee that Ms. Ratansi brought up great questions about the CEBA that had been brought up repeatedly at other committees where they've just been sloughed off.
- Even if they've appeared in another committee, I think it would still be valuable to have them before us to explain what they're doing during this crisis, hold their feet to the fire if necessary. I'd hate to dismiss anyone just because they've appeared somewhere else.
- The Chair: That's a point well taken, Mr. McCauley.
- From my observation, I guess it's simply that if we have witnesses who can add something and provide new testimony to this committee, I'm all for it. If we're hearing the same old same old testimony, having the same answers we've heard in the finance committee or perhaps other committees, then I'm not sure how productive and useful that would be for this committee.
- Again, I'm certainly at the will of this committee as it sees fit.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I'd like us to have a look before we decide to scratch someone's name off just because they've appeared elsewhere.
- The Chair: That's a point well taken.
- Raphaëlle, could that be part of your task, to take a look at the witnesses who have appeared at other committees and make a determination, if possible, to see if any of that would be considered new and helpful information for our committee's study? Then we can go ahead and do that scheduling.
- Mr. Clerk.
- The Clerk: If I may, Mr. Chair, to ensure that I am understanding what the committee wants, we will proceed with the fifth and sixth meetings as outlined on the work plan of April 28. The fifth meeting will be Minister Qualtrough, Minister Lebouthillier, and officials from the Canada Revenue Agency. The sixth meeting will have representatives from the PHAC, the Public Health Agency of Canada, in addition to Bill Matthews and Arianne Reza.
- There was also a proposition from Mr. McCauley that the Minister of Public Services and Procurement be reinvited. I don't know whether that's for that sixth meeting or not.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: We can do it further down the road.
- The Chair: Paul, if we're having another minister appear, why don't we then do that at a separate meeting rather than putting them in with the meetings next Friday?
- The Clerk: The meetings for next Friday were already decided on; I'm talking about the week after that. The fifth meeting here would be for May 11; the sixth meeting that I'm detailing would be for May 15. There are two ministers invited for May 11, according to the work plan, and at the sixth meeting, which would take place on May 15, there is no minister invited but there are two representatives from PSPC.
- The Chair: Mr. McCauley, since we are having witnesses from PSPC on May 15, are you suggesting we have the minister appear on May 15?
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: No, because I think PSPC is appearing with PHAC.
- Did I hear that right, Mr. Clerk?
- The Clerk: Yes, PHAC.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I think they should probably be separate so that there's proper time.
- (1555)
- The Chair: Okay. In that case we will defer it.
- Mr. MacKinnon.
- Mr. Steven MacKinnon: I'm not sure I understand the reason for this. To examine the procurement of PPE, why would we want the deputy minister and the minister of the department, who are both coming for a second time, incidentally, to appear separately before this committee? Either we have them together or.... I don't understand at all the rationale for doing two separate sessions.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I think Mr. Matthews is more for some of the specifics of PPE. If you want to bring [Inaudible—Editor] at the same time, then if necessary we'll bring them back a third time. I just have great concerns that we will use up time discussing the national stockpile, which we're talking about that day, or other issues and get tied up. I'd like some clearer answers from the minister specifically on some of the back and forth, as they're contradicting themselves, and clear messaging, whether it's on Amazon or something else.
- I don't think we'll get that all in a one-hour meeting with Mr. Matthews and the minister, which is why I'm suggesting a separate one.
- The Chair: Colleagues, I can make a suggestion. We have a work plan that takes us until May 15. Under the original parliamentary calendar, we were not sitting the week of May 18. However, that old calendar is out the window and my understanding is there will be virtual parliamentary meetings as well as in-person meetings the week of May 18. Since it is apparent—to me at least—that this study will continue for the foreseeable future, I suggest we defer inviting the minister to come back, as Mr. McCauley suggested, until after May 15. Then during the week of May 11, I will schedule some time at either one or both of our two meetings for committee business and we can talk about the plans for subsequent weeks.
- How is that?
- An hon. member: It's good.
- The Clerk: Mr. Chair, the proposal is to invite the witnesses outlined in the fifth and sixth meetings on the work plan. If that's what the committee wants to decide on, it really should be, according to the order of the House, a recorded division.
- Do you wish me to proceed with that question for the committee to vote on now?
- The Chair: Yes, please, Paul. You're quite right. Procedurally, we do have to have a recorded division on this.
- (Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
- The Chair: Thank you.
- Colleagues, seeing that it is 3:59 and our technicians have asked us to adjourn at 4 p.m. sharp, I thank you all for your contributions.
- We are adjourned.
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Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates - Evidence - Number 010 - Friday, May 8, 2020
- (1105)
- [English]
- The Chair (Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC)): Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.
- Welcome to meeting 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.
- Colleagues, before we start, I would like to go over the schedule for committee meetings next week, as approved by the whips of all parties.
- Next week, on Monday, May 11, we will be meeting from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. That's eastern time, of course.
- On Friday, May 15, we will be meeting from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m., again eastern time.
- Colleagues, I would like to take five minutes at the end of today's meeting to talk about the witnesses we will be inviting to appear after May 15.
- I have a couple of general comments that I think everyone is familiar with.
- When speaking, wait until you are recognized. Speak slowly and clearly. If you are speaking in English, ensure that you are on the English channel. Conversely, if you're speaking in French, make sure you're on the French channel.
- To the President of the Treasury Board, if you're planning to alternate between languages, just make sure you are switching the interpretation channel to the language in which you will be speaking. Also, we would ask you to please pause briefly between switching languages so that our interpreters will be able to make the necessary adjustments.
- With that, colleagues, I would invite the President of the Treasury Board to make a brief opening statement.
- Welcome, Mr. Duclos....
- You might have to unmute your mike, Minister.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): That's bizarre. It should be working. That is very strange.
- Can you hear me?
- The Chair: Yes.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you.
- Mr. Lukiwski, thank you for reminding me of the technologically appropriate steps. I will try to be as well behaved as I can and switch, as you said, from English to French as I move from one language to the other in my brief presentation.
- Thank you for inviting me to be with you today. It's always a great privilege to be with your committee by whatever means it may be.
- [Translation]
- Joining me by virtual means today from the Treasury Board Secretariat are: Nancy Chahwan, the chief human resources officer for the Government of Canada; Francis Bilodeau, acting chief information officer for the Government of Canada; Marcia Santiago, executive director, expenditure strategies and estimates; and Kathleen Owens, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets. They will be with me to provide you with the most accurate information possible.
- I would like to speak briefly about the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, as it relates to public servants working remotely.
- [English]
- As you're well aware, the Government of Canada has directed its employees to work from home, whenever possible, to protect their health and safety and comply with public health advice. This has meant a large-scale shift of the workforce to home offices and makeshift offices in dining rooms and at kitchen islands in homes across our country.
- Regardless of where they work, however, federal employees are continuing to be productive in their efforts to provide Canadians with the government services they depend on every day and to provide critical services and the many new measures quickly developed in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Public servants at Canada Revenue Agency and Employment and Social Development Canada, for example, have rolled out services and such benefits as the Canada emergency response benefit and the Canada emergency wage subsidy. As of May 5, there were more than 7.5 million applicants and 10.7 million processed applications for the Canada emergency response benefit alone.
- [Translation]
- At Global Affairs Canada, public servants have worked to bring 20,000 Canadians home safely from locations all around the world. Canada's Armed Forces has sent its members to help out at hard-hit long-term care homes in Quebec and Ontario.
- Like private citizens, employees and owners of businesses across the country, public servants are contributing their skills and knowhow to the fight against COVID-19. And since mid-March, a large portion of these public servants, including those supporting critical services, have been working remotely whenever and wherever possible. A critical service is one that, if disrupted, would result in a high or very high degree of injury to the health, safety, security or economic well-being of Canadians, or to the effective functioning of the Government of Canada.
- Departments have identified their critical services and we continue to work with them to ensure the alignment of resources under established business-continuity planning processes.
- (1110)
- [English]
- Of course, sometimes delivering services through working remotely simply is not feasible. For these employees, departments are ensuring that proper protocols are being followed, including the provision and the use of personal protective equipment, proper cleaning practices and other measures.
- For the most part, though, working from home has become the new normal for many public servants who are carrying out their duties during the pandemic.
- [Translation]
- As noted, a great many public servants are working hard to develop and deliver support to Canadians, including a host of new emergency measures.
- While many public servants already have the necessary tools to do this, some require additional equipment, such as laptops, tablets, and monitors, as well as specific accommodations to allow them to do their work. Requests for equipment are being considered on a case-by-case basis, giving priority to those employees who are delivering critical services and those for whom the employer has a duty to accommodate.
- [English]
- With respect to using the government Internet network, the Treasury Board Secretariat, Shared Services Canada and departmental chief information officers have worked together to maximize and expand Internet bandwidth to support remote work and prioritize network access for critical operations. Our guidance to departments has recommended that anyone not supporting critical operations, service and program delivery should limit their use of the network....
- I am sorry for this delay. Thank you for your patience.
- The Chair: Perhaps, Mr. Minister, since you seem to be having some difficulty in aligning English to French, I would suggest that you just speak normally and put your interpretation device to “floor” or “off”. If you just pause briefly between switching from English to French, even though you don't have to switch channels, our interpreters should be able to keep up.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you for your guidance.
- [Translation]
- Thank you for your recommendation. I will try to translate into French what I have here in English.
- In addition, we are asking employees to use their government-supplied mobile devices, whenever possible, to send and receive emails, in line with security requirements. We are also asking that, whenever possible, they connect to the network during off-peak hours and for short durations to get what they need.
- To support continued and necessary collaborations within and across teams, we're also asking employees to use public cloud services, such as Microsoft Teams, Google Hangouts and Slack, for unclassified work, and to use the BBM Enterprise application to secure messages for up to Protected B work.
- In addition, we are working with thousands of public servants at home to support them with the safe custody and control of sensitive and classified information.
- We also understand that working remotely, especially with long periods of sheltering-in-place, can be hard on our employees' mental and physical well-being, like for all other citizens of this country and others who are telecommuting in the current conditions. So we have connected them with specialized mental health services, and we are encouraging them to do things to remain productive and, more importantly, healthy—common sense things like setting a suitable schedule, staying connected, even if only by virtual means, with colleagues and loved ones, and making time for self-care—getting enough sleep, eating healthy, and exercising regularly. These are public health guidelines.
- (1115)
- [English]
- The Chair: Minister, I'm sorry to interrupt, and I do apologize. I know we were having some technical difficulties, but we also have a limited time frame in which to work, so I'm going to have to ask you to conclude. We will go directly to questions.
- Colleagues, the minister has to leave at noon. It appears we will not be able to get a full two rounds in, but we will go as far as we can.
- In our first six-minute round of questions, we'll start with Mrs. Block.
- Mrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC): Mr. Chair, I would like to start by recognizing and thanking our public servants, both those who are working remotely and those who are continuing to head into the office or the parliamentary precinct. As the minister pointed out and as we've all experienced, working remotely has its own set of challenges that we are trying to overcome every day.
- Minister, I would like to ask you a question with regard to the responsibility that Treasury Board Secretariat has in overseeing government contracts. Does TBS provide guidelines for government contracts on, for example, sole-sourcing?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, MP Block, and I'm sorry for having taken a bit more time than anticipated because of the technological adjustments that I had to learn and apply. I think it's a good idea, indeed, to move to questions. Thank you for doing that.
- On the guidance and the guidelines regarding procurement, yes, Treasury Board has a set of guidelines that have been provided, both before the crisis and during the crisis, to maintain the integrity of the procurement system.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: You mentioned that there were guidelines both before COVID and now during COVID. Could you tell us of any additional oversight measures that the comptroller general has implemented to ensure adequate internal controls for COVID spending?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: That's a very good and important question. For the benefit of all members of Parliament on the committee, I would turn to Madam Owens, who is assistant comptroller general. I think she's on the call.
- (1120)
- Ms. Kathleen Owens (Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat): Yes, I am. Thank you very much for the question.
- With respect to emergency contracting, there are already controls within the policy.
- First of all, the emergency limits are temporary for COVID-19, so there is a time limit to these exceptional emergency contracts. Also, reporting to the Treasury Board Secretariat is required within 60 days on the use of the emergency contracts.
- In addition, you talked generally about the comptroller general. He has asked all CFOs and departments across town to track their COVID-19 expenditures and report back to him so that the spending can be tracked centrally.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Thank you.
- I note that the minister referenced that definitely these guidelines apply to the contracts awarded by PSPC, and I'm wondering if that stands true for contracts awarded for PPE.
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: Yes. For any contract using emergency authorities, the same rules apply regardless.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: We were advised yesterday during a briefing that one company in particular was awarded a contract now, during the COVID-19 pandemic, but that it's actually a 10-year contract. Can you tell me how that fits in with the emergency limits you've just described for us?
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: I think you'd have to ask the PSPC about the specifics of that contract, but the emergency limits refer not to the duration of the contract but to the value of the contract.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: All right. I will definitely be asking that question of PSPC when they appear before committee again.
- I'd like to turn to the $4.4 billion promised by the government for protecting health and safety, and more specifically to the $2 billion for personal protective equipment and supplies. Can you tell us if the contracts that have been struck, according to the guidelines and measures that have been put in place and the emergency limits, allow for prepayment?
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: Again, the specifics of each contract are something you'd have to ask the contracting organization, which is likely PSPC in this case.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Okay, but do your guidelines allow for the prepayment of contracts, regardless of—
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: Advance payments are allowed within financial management policy, generally, subject to certain conditions.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: What would those conditions be?
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: I am not an expert in the financial rules around them, but in general, advance payments are for receipt of goods or services within the upcoming year. They can't cross fiscal
- years.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Are you familiar with any limits on how much can be prepaid?
- Ms. Kathleen Owens: It has to be within the value of the contract. I can check with my financial management colleagues and get back to you on those specifics.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: I would appreciate that.
- Can you tell us—
- The Chair: Thank you very much, Mrs. Block. We're completely out of time.
- Before we go to our next intervenor, colleagues, and for the minister, if you are going to be asking your question en français, please ask the entire question for the entire six minutes en français. Minister, you can respond on the appropriate channel.
- If you are going to ask the minister a question in English, please carry out the entire question and answer period in English. Minister, you can then switch to English on your channel, rather than switch back and forth. There are a few technical difficulties when we do that.
- With that, I'll go to Mr. Weiler for six minutes, please.
- Mr. Patrick Weiler (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Good morning, everybody.
- Thank you, Minister, and all of our witnesses, for joining our virtual committee meeting this morning.
- We're all adjusting to working remotely. We're adapting and modernizing our systems to suddenly find ourselves working in a very different situation. I think we have to be very proud of how our public servants have stepped up to this challenge.
- Minister, my question to you is this: How has the Treasury Board Secretariat provided flexibility to government departments so that they can respond to COVID-19 quickly and efficiently?
- (1125)
- The Chair: Minister, your microphone needs to be unmuted.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you for your patience and for your guidance.
- Thank you for that very good question, MP Weiler. I think you make allusion to a broad context, in which we have to both provide the benefits and services that Canadians absolutely require in this emergency situation as well as maintain the health and safety of our public servants.
- By the way, we are all mindful—and you reminded us of that as well—that public servants may also go through difficult personal situations. They might need to look after children, they might have someone sick in their household or they might have their own personal health circumstances.
- It's a combination of the two things. Nancy Chahwan, the chief human resources officer, is on the line as well, and she might want to add a few things, but the key word from the start was "flexibility", because of the importance of respecting individual circumstances while ensuring that the machinery of government would operate appropriately.
- Mr. Patrick Weiler: That's great.
- What actions have been taken to increase the teleworking capacity across government? Have these actions yielded any success?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: If I may, I'll turn to Nancy.
- Nancy, you would be best able to provide the level of precision and usefulness that MPs would demand.
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan (Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat): Thank you. I apologize to the chair, the committee and the minister for the technical difficulties this morning.
- We have been able, through collaboration with Shared Services Canada my colleague Francis Bilodeau, who is at this meeting, and with others, to maximize productivity for the public service, even in these very exceptional times.
- Essentially, we were able to augment the technical capacity to make sure that employees who were abiding by public health instructions and staying at home whenever it was possible were the same time able to conduct the critical business of government, and even more than that.
- I should mention that we still have some employees showing up at the workplace when it is absolutely necessary to do so. We also have a great contingent of employees who are teleworking without necessarily needing constant access to the network. This is how we were able to redistribute the work and make sure that our employees— the vast majority of public servants across the country—are still contributing to the work.
- Mr. Patrick Weiler: That's great. It's been amazing to see the productivity of our public servants quickly adjusting to something of this magnitude.
- During these difficult times, it is essential that Canadians have access to the mental health supports they need. I'm curious. What actions has the Treasury Board taken to ensure there are mental health supports for our federal employees?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Minister, would you like me to respond to that?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Yes, please, Nancy.
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Thank you, and thank you for the question.
- It has been said that mental health is actually the second silent pandemic behind COVID-19. We have been extremely attentive from the get-go. The Treasury Board Secretariat has developed a tool kit that addresses several aspects of mental health for workers, including a very specific focus for front-line managers who have been asked to connect with the workers to make sure the essential work is continuing and the expectations are understood, but also that they are attentive to the accommodation needed for the individual situations of our employees working from home.
- That tool kit is on our website. It is accessible to other employers too, and it's been used tens of thousands of times.
- We also have made sure that we have reached out with webcasts. Just this week, we had a webcast, and 6,000 people accessed it to talk about how to cope with the current situation. This is not just about self-care. It's also about the care of our teams. It also gives tools, very practical tools, that allow managers to learn how to manage a team remotely. This has been a significant opportunity for us to learn about that.
- (1130)
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to Madame Vignola.
- [Translation]
- You have six minutes.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola (Beauport—Limoilou, BQ): Good morning.
- I am trying to be proactive and cover all the bases.
- How many of the 288,000 public service employees are currently teleworking? It can be a percentage.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.
- I will give you a broad idea. The majority of employees are working from home. Ms. Chahwan will be able to give you the exact percentage across the Treasury Board, if it's available. Let me remind you that the Treasury Board Secretariat gives guidelines and advice, but it does not make decisions in the departments concerned. As a result, the information is often per department.
- I would also like to add that 58% of the 300,000 employees reporting to the Treasury Board Secretariat are located outside the nation's capital. Those employees have often been able to use telework techniques, even before the crisis.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: All right.
- Approximately what percentage of employees are working from home?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Ms. Chahwan, do we have that percentage?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Mr. Bilodeau, could you give us an idea of remote network connections?
- Mr. Francis Bilodeau (Acting Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat): Yes, certainly. However, the number of remote connections does not necessarily equate to the number of people who are at work. That said, on a daily basis, there are approximately 150,000 simultaneous connections to the secure network access system. Again, this is not an exact figure, because a number of public servants work outside peak hours. This indicates that more public servants are working remotely, given that a number of public servants have been instructed to try to work offpeak hours to ensure that the networks do not get overloaded.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Thank you.
- I assume that many of these employees must have received teleworking equipment, such as a computer, and so on.
- First, how much has it cost to date to provide public servants with the equipment they need to work from home?
- Second, once they are back in the office, what are we going to do with all that equipment?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Bilodeau, do you have any
- specifics about the costs?
- Mr. Francis Bilodeau: I don't have the exact numbers. Minister Murray will appear before the committee with officials from Shared Services Canada in a few weeks, I believe. They will be able to give you some numbers and more details.
- Please note that a number of public servants already had tablets to be able to telework. However, we have certainly seen a rapid increase in the use of networks and in the number of specialized tablets allowing for communications that require a much higher level of protection.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I would like to add that, not only has this capacity increased extraordinarily fast, but we also expect it to be useful after the crisis, when work habits will be different.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Yes, the crisis is causing a lot of changes. Some time ago, the GCcoworking initiative on shared workspaces was launched.
- First of all, was it very popular?
- Next, what lessons were learned from it?
- Have you thought of expanding it over the next few months or years so that more people can take part?
- (1135)
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: That is a very good question. I will let Mr. Bilodeau answer it.
- Mr. Francis Bilodeau: I believe the measure the member brought up is more within the purview of the comptroller general. Perhaps Ms. Owens could talk about workspaces.
- As far as telework is concerned, I believe we have seen a big increase in telework capacity. This practice already exists in many organizations outside of government. We are seeing an increased capacity for telework that the government should consider as COVID-19 measures begin to be relaxed and we see a return to the workplace.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: The number of Government of Canada office buildings is quite amazing. If more and more people are looking at the option of continuing to work from home, what will be done with those buildings if they are used less and less?
- [English]
- The Chair: Minister, please keep your answer very brief, if possible.
- [Translation]
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Yes, this will be a very short answer: it is an important issue that we will certainly want to consider after the crisis.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Okay. It's an issue to watch.
- [English]
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.
- Mr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- Honourable Minister, are there collective agreements currently expired for which negotiations have been temporarily suspended because of COVID-19? If so, how many agreements are there and how many employees are affected?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: As you already know, and it's worth repeating, we are extremely grateful—and "we" includes all Canadians— for the hard work that public servants do all the time, particularly in the context of the difficult crisis that we are living through.
- There are currently 35 agreements signed with public servants, covering about 70,000 employees, and we are continuing our important work with the remaining bargaining agents so that we can conclude agreements for all public service employees.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Certainly we're all in support of the public workers. I can't imagine what it's like for public sector workers who've been without a contract for quite some time.
- For those contracts that have expired, how long have they been expired, and what is the estimated liability in the federal accounts for any outstanding payback that might be accrued or owed to the affected employees?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: For the precise answers to your questions, which I believe you deserve to get, I will turn to Nancy for the length of time that we have been engaged in discussions, dating to when those agreements expired, and any other related matters.
- [Translation]
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Thank you, Minister.
- I thank the member for his question.
- [English]
- The last round of collective agreements took us until the summer of 2018, for the vast majority of collective agreements, and we have been at the table ever since bargaining agents signalled their intent to launch the process.
- Mr. Matthew Green: As it relates to the outstanding payback that is accrued or owed, can you expand on that, please?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Yes. I don't have the precise numbers. I'm not sure if Glenn Purves is on the call with us, given the technical difficulties, but if not, we can send that information after the call. However, I can say—
- Mr. Matthew Green: Sure. I will go on to the next question, just because my time is limited.
- According to the Government of Canada InfoBase, as of March 31, 2019, the federal public service comprised just under 288,000 employees. Permanent or indeterminate employees account for 83% of the federal public service, term employees for 11%, casual employees for 3% and students for 3%.
- Has the COVID-19 pandemic had an impact on the number of term, casual and student employees in the federal public service?
- (1140)
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: It's a very good question. I know some
- of the answers. However, I would prefer to turn to Nancy for more
- complete answers.
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Thank you, Minister.
- We don't have an indication that the composition per se would have changed. There is some lag for us to get the numbers, but what I can tell you is that with regard to the term, indeterminate and casual employees, we have made sure that people were as productive as they could be, using telework, as we discussed before. As for students, we know that there has been a significant drop in referrals compared to last year. The Public Service Commission is responsible for the programs for student recruitment. They and Treasury Board Secretariat have worked together to make sure that our students are provided with a good opportunity to contribute to resolving the crisis and to help us as we work on recovery.
- This is important for our students. It can affect their graduation, but this would also allow us access to a qualified workforce that typically continues and forms la relève and—
- Mr. Matthew Green: My apologies, but I'm really interested in getting to the heart of the matter here. I'll be watching with interest, particularly with regard to the students, given this government's reliance on the Canada summer jobs program as a way to supplement student employment. I'm hearing that there might be a shift even in our own federal government, and I'll be watching that with interest.
- What will be the impact, then, of the pandemic on the composition of the federal public service in the medium to long term? I know that a lot of people are very afraid that austerity days are to come and that there will be attacks on public sector workers. I'm just wondering what the medium- and long-term impacts will be on composition.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: If I may, I will step in. As Nancy has said, and as you seem to be agreeing to, Mr. Green, we are going to need to look after students and our youth in the weeks and months to come, because they are going through very difficult circumstances.
- Today's announcement, by the way, about the unemployment rate tells us that there is a 13% unemployment rate for all Canadians, but it is almost 35% for young Canadians. We will need to look after them, because they will be extremely important in relaunching the economy and supporting the public service in the future.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to our five-minute rounds. Go ahead, Mr. Mc-Cauley.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Minister, you stated in the briefing document that you provided to the committee that employees working from home are responsible for safely guarding the information. How are you ensuring that there are no privacy breaches?
- Also, are employees being tracked?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We are not only, as you say, quite mindful of the importance of maintaining the integrity of the government—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Minister, we're short on time. Can we just go to the answers, please?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: In that case, I will turn to Francis, who would know a lot more about the various measures that have been taken.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thank you.
- Mr. Francis Bilodeau: I guess I would say there are two parts. We've increased the technological capacity for employees to work securely and remotely by increasing secure remote access and access to the VPN and by, in some instances, augmenting the capacity around things like Microsoft Office 365, which is up to protected B.
- We've also reissued guidance to all employees, reminding them that they're to use only vehicles and instruments that are appropriate for the nature of the conversations they're having.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: How are we following up on that? The reason I ask is that last year we had what I understand was the very worst year in our Canadian history of privacy breaches. We had 5,000 incidents of improper storage or handling of private documents. The very worst department in the entire federal service was TBS, with over 10%, so how are we actually ensuring privacy, besides just issuing guidance?
- The reason I ask is that the department, when confronted with the 10%, commented that it was merely rebriefing employees on proper safeguarding practices. What are we doing besides that?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Before I turn to Francis, I will say that I know the public service quite well and can assure you, Mr. Mc-Cauley, that they do all they need to do to preserve the integrity of the system. For more details, perhaps Francis would want to step in.
- (1145)
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Okay. Thanks.
- Could I just ask for no more interruptions, please? Can we just stick to the answers, please? We're short on time. Thanks very much.
- Mr. Francis Bilodeau: With regard to the network, there is ongoing monitoring and oversight by a combination of CSE and SSC. With regard to other media, including paper, etc., employees are trained and are provided guidance. As well, we expect the access to information and privacy groups within departments to be monitoring and the employees to self-report.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Great. Thanks very much.
- Ms. Vignola was talking—and I'm sorry I missed some of the answers— about the public sector working at home. We don't have an exact number of how many are working from home, besides a vast majority, but do we know how many are working from home or how many are on paid leave right now because they're not able to productively or properly work from home, either because of reality circumstances or because of a lack of proper equipment?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Nancy, would you like to provide whatever information we have at the level of the secretariat?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: We have very little aggregate information at this point. Departments are collecting it and we are working at aggregating it. We should have data towards the end of the month, but the vast majority of people are—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Would you provide that to our committee when you have it?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Pardon me?
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Would you provide that to our committee when you have that?
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Absolutely.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks.
- Also, a number of employees who were working and who were on paid leave for a shorter period have now received equipment or access to the system and are back to work, so to speak. Could you could provide those numbers as well?
- How much are we paying for public sector employees to be working at home? We're covering Internet, I assume, for the majority of them, or other equipment. Would you be able to provide how much we're paying for this?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: This is directly linked to the question asked by member Vignola just a moment ago. We can—
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: It wasn't specifically for covering Internet access, I don't think.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: That's right. Your question is even more specific.
- In that case, who on the team would be best able to answer?
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: You can get back to us at the same time you're providing the other information.
- Minister, we've been talking to the Information Commissioner, Ms. Maynard, about access to information. She's trying to get the government to be more proactive with transparency.
- We've seen all ATIPs put on hold. When will we start seeing members of Parliament and Canadians have access to the access to information requests? What are we doing to proactively ensure transparency in this time?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I had, indeed, a very good discussion—
- The Chair: Unfortunately, Minister, while it's an excellent question, we're out of time. I would ask you to provide a full and complete answer to Mr. McCauley's question in writing. Write to our clerk, and he will distribute that answer to all committee members.
- We'll now go to our second five-minute intervention.
- Go ahead, Monsieur Drouin.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Francis Drouin (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- I thank the minister for taking the time to join us and discuss his department and issues related to COVID-19.
- I, too, would like to thank all the public servants who are working hard to ensure that Canadians have access to the services they need in these difficult times.
- I represent a number of public servants, and I wonder about the measures taken.
- Have we taken any additional steps in the event that a public servant's spouse is infected with COVID-19?
- How does the department support employees who are sick and those caring for their spouse?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you for your question, Mr. Drouin.
- You brought up two very important things. Let me quickly summarize them.
- First, we owe a very great debt of gratitude to public servants, since their personal conditions during the crisis also affect them and because their professional responsibilities have increased in recent weeks.
- Second, you asked me what we are doing to support public servants so they can continue to work for Canadians. We have implemented measures for mental health and physical health. We are giving them the tools they absolutely need to be well and do a good job. This includes all the steps they can take to protect the health of their loved ones and, in some cases, to care for their children.
- There is a lot more to it than that. Ms. Chahwan can tell you more about how we take care of employees and those around them.
- (1150)
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: Mr. Drouin, thank you for your comments and your question.
- As the minister mentioned, several specific and extraordinary measures have been put in place for as long as it takes to manage the crisis.
- In the situation you just described, we have made sure that people's income would be maintained. We have also ensured that those dealing with difficult situations have access to psychological services with far fewer requirements than before, while ensuring reasonable diligence in the use of those services. For example, they can consult social workers and psychotherapists without necessarily going through psychologists. This also helps us to support the efforts of all Canadians.
- Mr. Francis Drouin: Thank you.
- I am fortunate to represent public servants who work in French and English. As parliamentarians, we also have to use translation services.
- How do these services work for public servants? How can public servants continue to work in the language of their choice?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I am going to let Ms. Chahwan answer that question.
- Ms. Nancy Chahwan: This is an extremely important issue. The crisis is no reason to stop ensuring that both official languages are respected at work. At the Treasury Board Secretariat, we made sure to remind the official languages champions in all departments of the importance of being able to communicate in either language.
- I am aware that some complaints have been filed with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages and were made public. Despite this, we are making sure that we do everything we can to meet the requirements.
- Mr. Francis Drouin: Thank you very much.
- How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?
- [English]
- The Chair: Mr. Drouin, you have less than 30 seconds.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Francis Drouin: So, I will just finish by saying thank you.
- [English]
- The Chair: Thank you.
- Colleagues, we'll only have time for one more five-minute intervention. I apologize, Mr. Jowhari; once again you've drawn the short straw. Our final five-minute intervention will go to Mr. Aboultaif.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Minister, we have shortages of PPE. I've been receiving calls from beyond Alberta from professionals who are looking to get PPE so they can go back to work. Are you aware that a few flights came back empty?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Providing personal protective equipment to our public servants is an absolute priority. If you want more details on that, I can turn to some of the representatives.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Thank you, Minister. Can your department or you, Minister, provide the manifests for Air Canada and Cargojet for all the flights getting that equipment from the beginning until
- now?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I would love to answer your important request positively; however, you would need to turn to PSPC, because they are the ones handling all matters of international procurement.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Thank you. I would like to make that request, if you don't mind, to get us this information or ask the department to supply it. Would that be possible?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I think you can make that reasonable request to them, and if you would like my assistance to connect you to their team, I would be glad to do so.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: That would be great. Minister, do you know if the government purchased PPE directly from suppliers or from other countries?
- (1155)
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Our strategy in the Government of Canada is based on both international procurement in a world in which PPE is solicited by a large number of countries as well as on procurement through a significant increase in domestic production. Domestic production is supported by ISED and international procurement is supported by PSPC.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Are you suggesting that we have a direct contract with other countries, or is the procurement going through a middleman or the private sector?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I know you want some clear and accurate answers, so again I would encourage you to connect to PSPC for all the good information you're seeking, and I would be able to support you in that.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: Minister, this question is on PPE for the armed forces. We've been asking the armed forces to assist, especially in Quebec in the Laval area and others. How are we making sure that our armed forces are getting the protection they need to be able to help in this hard time?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We always needs to be reminded of the importance of protecting our armed forces, especially in light of what they're currently doing in Ontario and Quebec. Again I would be happy to help engage you with Minister Sajjan, who is very mindful of that and could provide details on how he does that.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: In your opening remarks, you mentioned 7.5 million applications to CERB for $14 billion in assistance. Is that on a monthly basis?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: No, this is a cumulative number since March 15.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: If we take the $14 billion and divide it by 7.5, that's less than $2,000. Is that correct?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: In this case you would need to seek guidance from Minister Qualtrough and Minister Lebouthillier. They would explain to you—
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: That's in your speech, Minister.
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Yes, we know the figure, which I mentioned for your knowledge this morning. It is 7.5 million people, for a total of 10.5 or 10.7 applications, which adds up to a number of billions of dollars, the details of which I would be happy to try to solicit from other ministers—
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: I think it's fair to ask that question, because it was in your opening remarks.
- How much time do I have, Mr. Chair? Do I have another minute?
- The Chair: No. You have 30 seconds.
- Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: As my final question, you mentioned unclassified work in your speech. How do you define "unclassified work"?
- Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: At the federal level, we have different levels of classifications. They range from unclassified to very secret levels. Each of these levels is managed through directives that the Treasury Board Secretariat provides, and these directives are implemented by the different departments and agencies.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Colleagues, I'm going to excuse the minister and his officials, with our thanks. I know you have an appointment at 12 noon, Minister. We thank you for your appearance here today, and we again thank all of your officials.
- Colleagues, we will suspend for just a couple of minutes while we prepare our next slate of witnesses.
- We are suspended.
- (1155)
- _____________________(Pause)_____________________
- (1200)
- The Chair: Colleagues, I'm calling this meeting to order. We are reconvened.
- For the benefit of those witnesses who have joined us, I'd like to make a couple of comments to assist you in your presentations.
- Before speaking, make sure you are recognized by the chair.
- When you are ready to speak, you can either click on the "unmute" button or press on the space bar if you're using a desktop computer. When you release the space bar, you will automatically go back to mute.
- When you're speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of our interpreters.
- I'd also like to explain some of the guidelines regarding the interpretation. If you are speaking in French, please go to the French channel. If you wish to make your comments and remarks in English, please make sure you're on the English channel. If you are going to be switching from one language to the other, please pause briefly before going to the second language to allow our interpreters to catch up with you. If a question is asked of you in one language, I would ask that you give the response in the appropriate and corresponding language.
- I understand we have four presentations. We will go immediately to them, but I would remind colleagues that we must adjourn at 1 p.m. sharp, because our technicians need time to start setting up for the next meeting, which will start approximately an hour after ours.
- With that, I'm not sure of the order of speaking, but I have representatives from the Canada Employment and Immigration Union, the Public Service Alliance of Canada, Service Employees International Union Healthcare and the Union of Taxation Employees.
- First up, I have Mr. Bourque.
- (1205)
- Mr. Eddy Bourque (National President, Canada Employment and Immigration Union): Dear members of the standing committee, as national president of the Canada Employment and Immigration Union, please allow me to begin by thanking you for the time to speak on behalf of our 20,000-plus members from Service Canada, IRCC and IRB. It is our members who work to serve the public and ensure the delivery of key government services every day, such as old age security, CPP, employment insurance, as well as processing applications for citizenship, permanent residency and refugee status. It is our members who have been responsible for the enormous task of responding to the initial influx of EI claims and inquiries, and adjusting quickly to the changes in program delivery across our three departments at a crucial time.
- It is worth noting that over 70% of our CEIU members are women. Many are single mothers, and many are among the lowest income earners within the public service. They are disproportionately responsible for child care and domestic labour while also being on the front lines of the pandemic, physically and virtually. They have been working across Canada in various offices and call centres where they serve the public and ensure the delivery of key government services and initiatives every day. Needless to say, our members have gone above and beyond in an unprecedented fashion while being heavily impacted by this pandemic.
- As we focus on Mental Health Week, we must highlight the importance of providing a safe and healthy workplace for all. As the surge in EI claims placed unprecedented pressure on our members at Service Canada, the number of incidents of verbal abuse and physical violence increased drastically. Our members deserve safe and healthy workplaces and fair working conditions.
- Our members fear for their safety and fear being vectors of transmission for their loved ones or also for anyone accessing in-person service centres. While closing the centres has postponed the urgency of the matter, it is critical that personal protective equipment is available and that safety measures are upheld by management. There were many reports of managers coercing members to continue to work in unsafe conditions. While the response from the employer was tepid to past requests for plexiglass barriers and security presence, the pandemic underscores the importance of these measures to protect against the risks of the pandemic and also to reduce the risk of physical violence.
- In call centres, the downtime between calls is inadequate especially when calls involve verbal abuse or other triggering matters, and the emphasis on limiting call time often leads to frustrated Canadians calling back with new problems. It's time to provide more adequate training and support to call centre staff, allow appropriate downtime between calls and place an emphasis on successful resolution of calls rather than rushing through the queue.
- Overcrowded offices, bedbugs, bat-ridden buildings and outdated telework policies conspire to create a toxic environment where members working in close proximity become vectors of transmission as their own health deteriorates. The alternative of working off the kitchen table for months on end highlights the need for a modern, humane and sustainable approach to office space use and teleworking within the public service that is consistent with promoting mental health, reducing medium- and long-term health risks and reducing the risk of spreading the virus.
- Members are now reporting that they are being pressured to return to unsafe working conditions when what they need is empathy and support from management to do their jobs. The mental health impacts of the pandemic present an opportunity for our government to lead the way through compassionate, safe and humane approaches to management that are conducive to good mental health outcomes and good service to Canadians.
- Just before the pandemic, our members rallied to mark four years of continued service through the Phoenix nightmares. Many are still doing their jobs in the middle of this pandemic while still sorting pay issues and continuing to show up and get the job done.
- CEIU is proud of the work done by our members every day, but especially the tremendous work accomplished in processing a record-breaking volume of activity and delivering critical government supports to Canadians in need.
- (1210)
- If the pandemic has taught us anything, it is that sweeping changes across the public service are possible. Telework works, and the barriers we thought existed can be overcome. Health and safety at work is a critical public health issue, mental health awareness is a success factor in delivering quality services to Canadians and communications between the union and management are critical for everyone's safety, especially during a pandemic.
- We hope that the federal government will remember the incredible dedication and commitment our members have shown throughout the pandemic and every day, and we look forward to talking about it further at the bargaining table.
- The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bourque.
- We'll now go to Mr. Aylward, representing the Public Service Alliance of Canada.
- Mr. Aylward, please present your opening statement, hopefully in six minutes or less.
- Mr. Chris Aylward (National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Good afternoon, and I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate today.
- I would like to start by commending the federal government for its rapid response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Our 140,000 members in the federal public service are proud to be a major part of this response and proud of their contribution in this very difficult time. Many are on the front lines battling the virus and delivering emergency financial support to millions of Canadians.
- The government has been in unprecedented regular communication with our union as the pandemic has unfolded, and we are encouraged by the spirit of co-operation. It has allowed us to facilitate significant changes across the public service in order to help Canadians but also to support the tens of thousands of public service workers who have had their work and personal lives upended.
- Our members at Canada Revenue Agency and Service Canada have helped process literally millions of applications for financial assistance for individuals and businesses and are continuing to do so every day. Border service officers deal with potentially infected travellers daily, and food inspectors are in grave danger at meatpacking plants that have been overrun with COVID-19. Our members in our federal corrections institutions face similar threats, and thousands have stepped forward to do completely new jobs whenever there has been a need to support the government's relief efforts. They have done so around the clock when needed, with their children by their side, with family members to care for and with the constant stress of changes that the virus has brought to the daily lives of each of us.
- These are just a few of the examples of how our members are putting Canadians first during this crisis, but as time passes, their employer's words of gratitude are beginning to ring hollow. That's because 140,000 of these PSAC members have been working without a new contract for years, and many have been waiting up to four years. There is no reason for this continued delay.
- Elsewhere in Canada, the need to provide stability to the public service and fair compensation to public service workers during this pandemic has been recognized. The Government of Ontario bargained and settled with its teachers' unions in the first weeks of this crisis, and the Quebec government is at the bargaining table with unions representing over 500,000 public sector workers. Canada Post, a large federal employer, reached a tentative agreement with Public Service Alliance of Canada members just weeks ago.
- The government implemented massive changes at lightning speed across the public service with the help of our members, yet it has refused to move forward on the comparably modest task of settling a round of bargaining. PSAC members represent 50% of the federal workforce, and these are the same workers who continue to experience four years of Phoenix pay nightmares and have yet to be compensated for their hardships.
- Canadians need a stable public service that is well supported during this difficult time, and our members certainly deserve the right to a basic, fair collective agreement. As part of their response to COVID-19, we are urging the federal government to get their negotiators back to the table with a mandate to reach a fair settlement for the benefit of PSAC members and all Canadians.
- On a separate matter, the government must continue to make the health and safety of federal public service workers a top priority. Despite some exceptions that we continue to work through, we acknowledge that the federal government has worked hard to keep the vast majority of our members safe during this pandemic. Moving forward, whether on the front lines or in offices, our members need to know that protective measures and training will be in place and that personal protective equipment will be in stock and available. In addition, working with provinces to speed up testing and contact tracing is very important for our members in addressing any future outbreaks at their work sites.
- The government has done a commendable job at supporting workplace mental health in the federal public service in these extraordinary times. As the emotional and physical strain of the pandemic continues to grow, this should remain a top priority for the government.
- More broadly, PSAC is pleased that the government has responded to the crisis with progressive measures to support Canadians. Actions such as expanding access to employment insurance; the CERB; supports for students, parents, seniors; women's shelters; food banks; and emergency housing have all been welcomed and much needed.
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- Many of PSAC's non-federal government members, such as the almost 30,000 workers we represent in universities, have been hit hard by closures and have been helped by the government's financial support.
- Lastly, our union urges the government and all parliamentarians to look carefully and optimistically at the future. The COVID-19 pandemic has created enormous hardship, suffering and tragic loss for so many, but it has also created an opportunity for big change. The horrific living and working conditions in the long-term care sector have been exposed, as have other dangerous consequences of decades of government cuts, low wages and corporate greed. People are more conscious of their own vulnerabilities and understand better the importance of having robust social support systems in place and the need for strong public services.
- There is a consensus that going back to the way things used to be is not an option. The government has made important decisions to support Canadians, decisions that have required significant funding. The impact of the pandemic is severe, and a lasting recovery will take time. The federal government's expenditures are an investment in Canadians and in the future of this country.
- What this pandemic has shown is that public services are unique and indispensable. We cannot return to an austerity mentality and cutbacks to social services and programs. Instead—
- The Chair: Mr. Aylward, thank you. I'm going to have to cut you off there. Unfortunately, we have very limited time to get all of the questions in.
- We will now go to the representatives from the Service Employees International Union Healthcare.
- Madam Stewart, you have six minutes or less, please.
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart (President, Service Employees International Union Healthcare): Thank you. Good afternoon.
- Members of the committee, thank you for hearing from me today. More importantly, thank you for taking the opportunity to hear from SEIU.
- We represent over two million members across the United States, Puerto Rico and Canada. I proudly serve as international vice-president of our union and as president of SEIU Healthcare, which represents over 60,000 front-line health care workers in the province of Ontario.
- Many of these members are employed in the long-term care facilities that have become an epicentre of the COVID-19 pandemic. The crushing impact on these homes, their staff and the residents they care for cannot be overstated. Simply put, our system of care has failed.
- We knew two things about this virus early on: one, that this was severely contagious; and two, that the elderly were especially susceptible to illness and death. You would think that subnational governments responsible for congregate care settings of the elderly would immediately recognize the risk of inaction around the longterm care sector. But provinces like Ontario overlooked the privately run long-term care sector and the inherent vulnerabilities that underpin those facilities.
- Please note that I want to highlight the role of provincial governments only to stimulate discussion about what role the federal government could have in the future as we overhaul the long-term care sectors across Canada.
- In black and white, the data tells us that these outbreaks and the resulting death toll seem to be concentrated in for-profit facilities. Deaths in for-profit homes are 50% higher than in non-profit homes. The rate of death is nearly double in for-profit homes.
- Behind each COVID-19 number is a tragic story. Christine Mandegarian, Arlene Reid, Sharon Roberts: each a woman, each in her 50s, each a person of colour and each a personal support worker. If you are now willing to recognize them as health care heroes, then I submit to you that it will be an injustice to the families in mourning if we do not reveal the failings of our system.
- First, Canada must maintain an ongoing supply of personal protective equipment. This is our number one concern. There is a chorus of cries from our nurses, personal support workers, dietary aides and cleaners. You name the job classification; they will tell you that there is rationing of PPE. Workers who should have been supplied much earlier continue to be left without the appropriate masks, shields and gowns, leaving them to wear garbage bags instead.
- Second, out of concern for public health, employment in longterm care facilities should require full-time jobs with such benefits as paid sick time and a pension. Then workers would not be labelled as "wrongdoing pollinators" and be restricted to only one facility, as if they had done something wrong other than seek a living wage paycheque.
- Third, mandate higher staffing levels to improve quality of care for residents and seniors. Providing higher levels of front-line staff would ensure that we have the human resources available to bathe, change, feed and care for our elderly, not just during a pandemic but always.
- The failings we experience today were made worse because of the competing self-interest at the core of for-profit long-term care corporations—namely, the fiduciary duty to their shareholders. The failed experiment of for-profit operators in our long-term care system must come to an end.
- Members of the committee, whatever form an overhaul might take, the federal government can and should play a role in supporting these precariously employed women who deliver our care. We are calling on the federal government to strengthen the retirement security of precariously employed, low- to modestly paid care workers without access to workplace pensions. After a career of serving our communities, they deserve to retire with the economic dignity they have earned. Without the support, the home care and long-term care sectors will leave behind workers incentivized to seek employment in other parts of our health care system that provide a more secure retirement.
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- Before I end, I want to point out the big elephant in the room. Each member of this committee, and your colleagues in Parliament and across government, are going to be heavily lobbied by massive for-profit long-term care corporations and their industry associations.
- Are companies like Chartwell, Revera, Sienna and Extendicare going to lobby for higher standards for senior care with mandated staff-to-resident ratios, for transparency into transfer payment agreements for government contracts, or for full-time jobs for the women who deliver the care? Instead they will push to reduce regulations or for the government to pay for expenses the company itself should be paying.
- When the lobbyists of the for-profit providers knock on your door, I want you to remember all those who have died and ask yourselves whose side you will be on: the side of shareholders profiting from our care system, or the side of the elderly and the women who care for them, too many of whom we have already lost.
- Thank you.
- The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Stewart.
- We will now go to our last intervention, representing the Union of Taxation Employees, Monsieur Brière.
- You have six minutes or less, please, sir.
- Mr. Marc Brière (National President, Union of Taxation Employees): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- My opening remarks will be in both official languages. I will do my very best to go from one language to the other and to stay within the six minutes.
- [Translation]
- Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
- I, too, would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in this forum today.
- The Union of Taxation Employees, commonly known as UTE, is a component of the Public Service Alliance of Canada and represents some 28,000 employees at the Canada Revenue Agency.
- [English]
- I want to start by extending my compliments to the federal government, especially the Canada Revenue Agency, for stepping up in these difficult times due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
- While the Union of Taxation Employees and the Canada Revenue Agency have enjoyed, for the most part, a history of meaningful, respectful and collaborative consultations, the COVID-19 crisis called for a new era of collaboration, innovation and timely decision-making. During this time UTE set aside our difficulties and polarization around the collective bargaining process in an effort to deliver the government's mandate and promises to Canadians, and we called upon our members to step up to do what was needed in these trying times.
- (1225)
- I am pleased so far with the co-operation, which has allowed us to agree on key issues, such as leave for our members who cannot work due to the pandemic and also the postponing of any set guidelines in regard to staffing or grievance issues.
- It is important for me to mention the commitment and the exemplary work done by our members, who have been assigned new tasks and additional programs like no other department in the federal government. They work evening shifts and weekends from their homes, juggling work with their family obligations and child care obligations as well.
- UTE members have shown unwavering dedication and commitment to their work as they rapidly implement the government's various financial support measures for the public during the pandemic, such as the massive Canada emergency response benefit, the wage subsidy, the student benefit and extensions to the GST credit and the Canada child benefit, all of this without forgetting that they must continue to process the benefits that are normally remitted to the public, as well as the tax returns for individuals and corporations during this tax season.
- When COVID-19 hit, UTE was in the middle of conducting strike votes in an effort to engage the CRA in returning to the bargaining table to negotiate a fair and reasonable collective agreement for our members and to take job action if necessary to achieve an agreement. In light of the crisis, the PSAC UTE decided to suspend the strike votes in an effort to do our part to assist in controlling the spread of the virus and, more importantly, to assist the CRA and the Canadian government in their efforts to provide economic benefits to those Canadians who are greatly in need at this time.
- Initially, the CRA scrambled to outfit some critical workers with equipment so they could work from home. At the same time, other large numbers of critical employees were required to physically report to the workplace to provide service to taxpayers. Through collaborative efforts between the CRA and UTE, we were able to reduce the number of employees required to be physically at the workplace and to increase the number of employees able to telework to meet the ever-changing new and efficient demands for the delivery of economic benefits and services to Canadians.
- When the CERB was implemented, CRA needed to expand its capacity to help Canadians with the process of applying for the new benefit. CRA put out the call to its non-essential employees, employees who were at home, asking them if they would volunteer to work the phones, answering questions from applicants and providing other services, notwithstanding that these functions were not part of their work descriptions and were outside their normal hours of work. CRA's employees responded loudly and proudly, with over 7,500 volunteers stepping forward, the vast majority of whom are UTE members.
- These volunteers agreed to work long hours and on weekends answering questions and processing applications from Canadians, some four million of whom have applied for support since the the onset of the pandemic. The agency's virtual call centre hours run to 11 p.m. to ensure service is accessible from coast to coast, in contrast with the normal extended hours to 9 p.m. offered during the regular tax-filing season.
- Our members have also been asked to complete verifications for eligibility—and this requirement will continue as time goes on—in order to ensure compliance and safeguard the country's economic interests. Other members are working from tax centres, supporting the government's boost to the GST/HST credit and the Canada child benefit in response to the pandemic.
- UTE lauds the government with respect to its initiatives to safeguard the economic interests of Canadians, and we are proud to be a contributing and critical component of the delivery of these initiatives. At the outset, and with the ever-increasing levels of service and effort required to deliver these benefits, we knew that this would be a daunting task, but at the same time, we had confidence that our members would accept the challenge and deliver the necessary services with the professionalism, dedication, loyalty and integrity that they have always shown.
- [Translation]
- I reiterate that UTE members are working hard despite the fact that they have not had a wage increase since November 2015 and are working under a collective agreement that expired on November 1, 2016.
- In addition, term employees, many of whom have worked loyally for the CRA for many years, are uncertain about their future and are treated very differently than the rest of the public service in terms of entitlement to indeterminate employment.
- We respectfully request that the federal government follow the lead of provincial and municipal governments, which moved quickly to settle contract negotiations with their employees and employee unions during the pandemic.
- (1230)
- [English]
- In closing, I want to thank you once again for giving me the opportunity to address this committee. I remain available to answer any questions you may have.
- The Chair: Thank you very much, sir.
- Colleagues, as I mentioned at the outset of my remarks before this meeting started, I need about five minutes at the end of this meeting to discuss some witnesses that we'll be bringing in post May 15, so we will have time for one complete round of six-minute interventions.
- We will start with, Mr. Aboultaif.
- Six minutes, please, sir.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I think it's me, Mr. Chair.
- The Chair: Well, that's a little change from what I have on my list, but Mr. McCauley, go right ahead.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks.
- Witnesses, thanks for your comments.
- Mr. Brière, let me start with you. First of all, thanks very much for your very upbeat and positive report on what your workers are doing. It's inspiring to hear that message, as opposed to a constant attack and a self-centred focus.
- Do you know how many of your workers are actually working from home and how many are in the office? The reason I ask is that a lot of work is being done, especially around the CERB, which is great, but there are still a lot of outstanding tax issues with the CRA that we're hoping to get looked after for our constituents. We're told that it's going to wait. We understand that, 100%, but we're just trying to get an idea of how many are working on past cases and how many are still in the office with access to files.
- As a follow-up question, what's going to be needed at your offices for us to move forward in a safe manner, such as space in the workplace and so on? I'd like to hear back from you.
- Mr. Marc Brière: To answer your first question regarding the number of people working either on-site or remotely, there are about 2,500 employees at the CRA who are still working on site as we speak, and there are, I would say, about 30,000 people working remotely.
- The CRA has expanded its bandwidth greatly, and it's a bandwidth that's shared with the Canada Border Services Agency. We can have almost 40,000 people, the entire staff of the CRA, working remotely right now. The vast majority of these workers are critical workers. On site, they are all critical—2,500. There are also roughly 22,000 who are doing critical work from home, and over 8,000 who are doing non-critical but still important work.
- To your question about what we are looking for to go back and resume the normal activities—if that ever happens—we are in discussions with CRA, and all the departments are looking at making resumption plans.
- With the new reality, it looks like not everybody will be going back to work on site. There will be a portion of employees who will be able to go back on site, but we need to have physical distancing to work safely. It's harder in some locations like the big tax centres in Winnipeg, Jonquière, and Sudbury, with a massive office. I think you cannot ask 3,000 people to work in that kind of office while still keeping a safe distance.
- It looks like a percentage of employees will go back to work, and some others will be working remotely. That seems to be the way of the future. That's what we envision. The CRA is looking into its resumption plan, but it's far from being ready right now, in my opinion.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks.
- You mentioned "critical" and "non-critical". Could you define for us what you term as "critical workers", the 2,500 who are physically still in the offices?
- Mr. Marc Brière: There are 22,000 critical workers at home and 2,500 in the office. They're all doing critical work. The difference is that those working on site are not able to work remotely, either because of the equipment or because some of the jobs have to be done on site, like receiving the mail and opening up the paper copies of tax returns, for example.
- Anything that has to do with processing the tax returns, the Canada emergency wage subsidy, the CERB, all those programs from the government are critical to the government and to the population. That's what we mean by "critical", on top of the regular tax work processing the T1s and T2s for corporate and individual tax returns so that people can get their reimbursement on time if they are waiting for one.
- (1235)
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Great. Thanks very much, Mr. Brière.
- Mr. Bourque, I'll pose the same question to you. What will it take in your view to have a safe return to the offices for your workers? Are you in the same situation as the CRA, where we have these large plants of 2,000 or 3,000 people in a call centre where it's just not practical?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: Yes, for us it's the same thing. One of our biggest concerns is around reopening the in-person services. We've been pushing for plexiglass and security at the front end, and making sure that there's physical spacing for clients as well.
- Right now we do have a lot of our members working from home. I think between 60% and 70% of staff are working from home, for those who can. As we know, they've been provided with a laptop, a headset and a phone but no ergonomics besides that, which is a concern. Yes, it can be done in the short term, but working long term from home without the proper equipment and setting is going to be hard on the employees.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?
- The Chair: You have 20 seconds.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Quickly, Mr. Bourque, you mentioned that you have some of the lowest-paid workers in the public service. What would it be on an annual basis?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: I would say between $40,000 and $55,000.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thanks very much for your time.
- The Chair: Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have six minutes.
- Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk (Windsor—Tecumseh, Lib.): Thank you very much, Chair.
- I'll be splitting my time with my colleague MP Fergus.
- Thank you very much, Mr. Brière, for your testimony.
- There was a terrific article in Maclean's magazine this week. The title is "Pulling off a bureaucratic miracle: How the CERB got done". It's an excellent article, and I highly recommend everyone have a read of that. It talks about the fact that when the call went out to the CRA folks to get folks to work the phones to help people process their payments, their applications and whatnot, 7,500 folks from your outfit raised their hands and volunteered—tremendous work.
- I know the UTE folks have been asked to work, as the article states, seven days a week, including an extra five hours on weekdays and a combined 15 hours on weekends, which amounts to about 80-hour workweeks.
- I just want to read one excerpt from the article, which I think is important. It highlights the tremendous, heroic work of UTE folks:
- Julian Nicholson, a CRA resource officer in Hamilton, Ont., helps colleagues navigate the CERB and, in spare moments, talks directly with taxpayers. He works 12-hour weekdays, as well as a shorter shift on Saturdays. Nicholson says in early April, he once took 185 calls in a single day. "This has been our moment," he says.
- Knowing the tremendous work the folks here have put forward, how have they managed to strike a work-life balance, with the tremendous pressure they've been under in the last few weeks?
- Mr. Marc Brière: Thanks for your nice words about our members.
- Obviously, those who are processing all the benefits and answering questions from millions of Canadians have been working around the clock. The people working 75 to 80 hours a week obviously have a very hard time balancing their work and personal lives. The job had to be done. The call was made, and we had to deliver. People at CRA are used to processing a high volume of transactions, but this was unprecedented, so it's not easy.
- I am always trying to be positive in talking to the media and to the public, but obviously—I have notes here from my different regions— there is a lot of anxiety. Some people are exhausted. Some people are starting to ask for vacation or to slow down a little bit and have somebody else helping out. It depends on every individual, but to say that it is easy would be lying. It's not easy. We are processing millions of transactions in record time, so it's difficult, but people are keeping good spirits.
- If you noticed, I mentioned in my remarks that the challenge, the cloud over our heads is not having a contract. Imagine, we are doing this without having a contract for three and a half years. People are finding that unacceptable. We are trying to get back to the table, but right now we're holding on. Obviously, we'll need to follow up closely for the mental health of our members.
- It's a challenge for many people at Service Canada also, but at CRA the load is pretty heavy. We're hanging on, but we are following up closely. So far it's going okay, and if people have some anxiety and difficulty, we're helping them out in collaboration with the employer.
- (1240)
- Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk: Thank you very much, Mr. Brière, and please do pass along our sincerest thanks to all of your members for their tremendous work.
- I will yield the rest of my time to MP Fergus.
- Mr. Marc Brière: Thank you.
- The Chair: Mr. Fergus, you have about two minutes.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Greg Fergus (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
- I would like to thank all the witnesses with us today and I tip my hat to them and to their union members, who have done an outstanding job helping Canadians. In particular, I would like to acknowledge the work of members of Mr. Aylward's and Mr. Brière's unions.
- Ms. Stewart, my question is for you because you are the only one who brought it up. Do you think we should break the numbers down or collect data to see if there is a race-based impact on longterm care facility employees?
- [English]
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: Yes. Thank you very much for the question. It's an extremely important one.
- The statistics already show that the majority of senior care workers in home care and long-term retirement homes are marginalized people. They are predominantly women and, of course, women of colour.
- In the inquiry that we're requesting from the Ontario government, that is absolutely a question that we have on the line. All three of the members...actually, all six now in Ontario have been men and women of colour. That's in the workforce, but we're also asking in the communities to take an examination of that. I believe it's tied to a number of things, predominantly income and the fact that so many of these workers have to work in multiple jobs so they're in the community a lot and on public transportation. They come in contact with very many clients and residents, so that just adds to the potential of spreading the viruses.
- Absolutely, I think that's an important examination we all have to look into.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- We'll now go to Madam Vignola.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Vignola, you have the floor for six minutes.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Mr. Bourque, you mentioned ergonomic issues related to working at home because a number of people are working at the kitchen table.
- Have you received a lot of calls regarding the onset of pain over these six weeks of telework? If so, do your members have access to occupational therapists or advice on workplace ergonomics?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: As you mentioned, it has already been six weeks since teleworking began. More and more of our members are contacting us to say that it is not working. Currently, the employer is letting them pick up and bring home their ergonomic chairs or keyboards. However, the problem is that the kitchen table is not at the same recommended height as their desk at work.
- Certainly, as time goes on, there will be more and more cases.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: It is possible that more and more people may decide to work from home for security and other reasons. If this is the case, has the employer shown any openness to compensating employees or setting up part of their living environment so that they can work safely?
- Mr. Eddy Bourque: We have not had these discussions yet, because we are only starting to see cases, but the discussions will definitely come.
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: All right, thank you, Mr. Bourque.
- Ms. Stewart, since the early 1990s, the federal government has been gradually backing out of health transfers to Quebec and the other provinces.
- In your opinion, what impact has this withdrawal had on the current situation for your members and users of the healthcare system?
- (1245)
- [English]
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: Thank you. That's a great question as well.
- There's definitely something broken in the system. We all know that front-line health care is managed and delivered by the provinces, but I think there is a role for government to play, to oversee what the governments are doing on the front line. Senior care is an issue for federal, provincial and municipal governments— the accountability and regulations and what the provinces do with that money, especially for the for-profits.
- All of the homes, for-profit and not-for-profit, get the same money through envelopes. As I said, the for-profits are accountable to shareholders, so where do those dollars come from? Then when the transfers are going through, there need to be regulations and accountability taken over that.
- I think the federal government needs to take a look and find the answers. I'm not sure exactly what they might be, but I think there's a role here for the federal government to oversee some of what's going on in the provinces.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: The question was not whether the federal government has to enter into provincial jurisdiction. I want to know whether reducing transfers to the provinces by up to 22% since the 1990s has had a significant impact on the quality of working conditions and on the users' living conditions.
- What do you think would happen if health transfers went back up to 50%, where they should be?
- [English]
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: An increase in money to the front line would definitely help secure the full-time employment of workers who need to be there. We need to address staffing levels in those homes, so any resources that can be put back in by the federal government would absolutely make a huge impact on the outcome.
- Again, similar to what the federal government has done through this pandemic in adding financial support, which has been great, there need to be regulations and oversight regarding those transfers, always. More money is always welcome, but it should go to the right places: directly to the front line and into the levels of care.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
- Mr. Chair, I am giving the rest of my time to my colleague Xavier Barsalou-Duval. How much time do I have left?
- [English]
- The Chair: You have approximately one minute.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: Thank you.
- Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes— Verchères, BQ): My question is for those who work in the public service, particularly for the Canada Revenue Agency.
- Mr. Brière, you told us earlier that it is quite a struggle to succeed in meeting the demand and answering all the questions the public is asking, with the many hours of overtime that it requires. I feel that clearly shows that you are understaffed. Have you considered adding more staff to meet the demand? Have you considered your options? What was the employer's response to these needs?
- [English]
- The Chair: Please give a very brief answer, if possible.
- [Translation]
- Mr. Marc Brière: With the exceptional workload we have right now, we definitely need more people. We also had to adjust quite rapidly. So the agency asked non-essential employees who are at home and not working to get involved and help the call centre agents to answer questions. Approximately 7,500 people came forward and were trained to assist the 2,500 permanent employees in our call centres, which helped us cope with the situation.
- [English]
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- I want to thank, on behalf of our committee, all of the witnesses who appeared here today. Your comments and observations were both insightful and informative. We thank you for your participation.
- Colleagues, I will excuse the witnesses now—
- Mr. Matthew Green: Do I not get time? You said you needed five minutes, Mr. Chair.
- The Chair: I'm sorry, Mr. Green. That's completely my error.
- Mr. Matthew Green: That's okay. You may have forgotten, but I
- certainly did not.
- The Chair: You have not just five minutes, sir, but six minutes.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I appreciate the time. I'll claim it all.
- My comments will be directed to Ms. Sharleen Stewart.
- I'd like to begin by acknowledging the families of Christine Mandegarian, Arlene Reid and Sharon Roberts, as well as the untold number of other workers who have succumbed fatally to COVID on the front lines of health care. It could be argued, of course, that LTC is solely within the provincial jurisdiction, but given the scale of the tragedy and the magnitude of the loss within LTC, I think taking that line would be gravely irresponsible.
- I want to cite something from investigative journalist Nora Loreto. She identified, through her research, that of the 4,408 Canadians who have died from COVID-19, 3,790 were in residential care. That's 85.9% of the deaths.
- In previous questions, we heard about the ongoing inquiry into Ontario's LTC homes. Back in 2018, CBC reporter John Lancaster stated that he was shocked at how many of these facilities spend less per capita on feeding their residents than our prisons do on feeding their inmates. Of course, you referenced Pete Seeger's famous line, "Which side are you on?"
- I'd like to talk about that and start there. Just how big is a company like Chartwell?
- (1250)
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: Chartwell is a big company. It's a North American-wide company. In Canada it is definitely one of the forprofit homes. I can share some numbers with you. Chartwell is valued at over $2 billion a year, and last year it paid out almost $130 million in dividends to shareholders.
- These are nursing homes that are supposed to be.... Well, the public sees them as being not-for-profit because, of course, money comes from the public purse. The same amount of money goes to not-for-profits as goes to for-profits, so they are cutting money from the public envelope somewhere. I can tell you exactly where it is. You see it. It's on the front line. It's in the care for those seniors.
- Not providing full-time work for personal support workers causes them to have one, two or three jobs. As to the hours of care, residents are getting, on average, about 1.9 to 2.25 hours of care per day. We are calling for it to be at least a minimum of four hours a day.
- You have companies like Extendicare, which receives over $263 million a year in revenue from the Ontario government, and I can tell you, that money is not going to the front line. You can see it through this pandemic. The numbers are astounding. Notice the difference between deaths and infections in not-for-profit homes versus for-profit homes.
- We need to do better, and that's what we're calling for in the inquiry. We're looking across the country to do the same thing.
- Mr. Matthew Green: It's certainly not lost on me that these privatizations started under Mike Harris. He is now, of course, the chair of the board there at Chartwell.
- We've heard you reference some other lobbying efforts that might be coming down the pike. I believe there is a call for extended EI instead of paid sick days. Why would that be an important thing for these big multi-billion dollar corporations to lobby for rather than having paid sick days for their workers?
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: It's because it's all in their best interests. Again, as I say, the lobbying is for their shareholders and certainly not for the seniors who are living in their homes in their dying years, or for those caregivers who can't seam together full-time work. Paid sick days are a dream. We did have it in Ontario, and then the government took it away, which was unfortunate.
- We hear the chief medical officer saying that we have to stay away when we're sick. These low-wage earners cannot afford to do that. Again, the companies are putting away profits to that degree to the shareholders. A company like Revera is owned by the Canada Pension Plan. I think we need to start there. That's a federal issue. Take a look at that.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Yes. Essentially, Bill Morneau can call them as the sole shareholder, tell them that he's not satisfied and have that company start there.
- I have to say that if people are paying attention to this, to where the concentration is for lost seniors' lives, our most precarious people in long-term care, this is not only an outrage, but a national scandal.
- We know that in terms of an inquiry, provincially this is being led in Ontario by your union, SEIU Healthcare. What can we do federally to provide a national inquiry or something of the sort to ensure that as we come into a second wave, we aren't leaving our most vulnerable people to be sacrificed once again?
- (1255)
- Ms. Sharleen Stewart: Absolutely, and as I said in my opening statement, we have to be ready for the next wave and to make sure that there's proper personal protective equipment in these homes. We must have infection control measures. When we try to talk to these corporations, they're not talking to us. We should not see personal support workers wearing garbage bags to protect themselves because multinationals like Chartwell are not providing them with the proper personal protective equipment.
- The inquiry is a pre-pandemic and post-pandemic one. We have to do better for the seniors of our country. They put a lot into our society. They deserve respect and dignity at the end of their lives.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I couldn't agree more.
- The last question is for PSAC.
- The Treasury Board is developing a back-to-work plan for reintegration. Have you been contacted and consulted, and are you satisfied with it?
- Mr. Chris Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Green, for the question.
- The Chair: Give a very brief answer if you could, Mr. Aylward.
- Mr. Chris Aylward: We have just started talks with the Treasury Board regarding a reintegration into the workplace. We have not seen the plan, but Treasury Board has committed that we will see it in the coming days. We look forward to consulting with Treasury Board on the reintegration into the workplace.
- Mr. Matthew Green: Thank you for the time, Mr. Chair.
- The Chair: Thank you, sir, and my apologies once again for temporarily forgetting that you had six minutes left for an intervention.
- Once again, thank you to all of our witnesses. It was a pleasure listening to your testimony. You are excused.
- Colleagues, we will now take the remaining time, the remaining four minutes that we have before we have to adjourn, to talk a bit about witnesses following May 15. The committee did invite the witnesses listed on meetings eight and nine of the work plan that was dated May 8 of this year. The subjects of these meetings are the distribution of medical supplies and cybersecurity.
- Raphaëlle, perhaps I'll turn it over to you for a more in-depth explanation of some of the witnesses that we have coming forward post-May 15.
- Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe (Committee Researcher): Yes, certainly, Mr. Chair.
- The witnesses that we suggest from the work plan are, on the distribution of medical supplies, the Minister of Health, the president and chief executive officer of Canada Post, the vice-president of Amazon Canada and the president of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers.
- As for the ninth meeting on cybersecurity, the proposed witnesses are the Minister of Digital Government, the president of Shared Services Canada and the chief technology officer of Shared Services Canada, as well as the director general. Also, we have officials from the Communications Security Establishment and, finally, a witness that we had today, Mr. Bilodeau, the acting chief information officer.
- The Chair: Thank you, Raphaëlle.
- Colleagues, one other thing I should point out to you is that Monday, May 18 is Victoria Day. That doesn't mean we cannot meet virtually on that day. I believe the whips of all four parties are communicating with members to see whether or not they would like to have a meeting on that date, to cancel the meeting outright or to reschedule the meeting for sometime later in the week.
- Could I get some comments from committee members?
- Mr. Green, I see you have your hand up. Let's go to you first.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I don't know what it's like federally, but what are the implications for our staff? I want to be considerate about our staff having that day off or whatever would be granted to them in a typical scenario.
- The Chair: I'll ask Paul if he has more information.
- That's a good question. I assume, Matthew, it would be all the staff who would work that day, should we have a meeting, would be subject to the normal holiday time regulations. They would get time and a half probably, perhaps double time. I believe it is a statutory holiday.
- Paul, am I right or am I wrong?
- (1300)
- The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Paul Cardegna): Mr. Chair, you are right. It most certainly is a staff holiday. It's a statutory holiday. I don't know the exact provisions for everyone involved under their terms and conditions of employment.
- I'm sure the whips are involved and are aware it is a statutory holiday. They are the ones responsible for setting the schedule, because they are balancing the resources among all the committees, including of course, the special committee on COVID. As a result, if the committee has preferences for which days it should meet, it would be more efficient for the members to talk to their whips directly because the whips are setting the schedule. We don't know what the schedule for the week of May 18 will be yet.
- The analysts and I suggest that we isolate for the two meetings following May 15 the witnesses that Raphaëlle just read from the work plan that was distributed yesterday.
- The Chair: Thank you, Paul.
- Colleagues, the normal practice has been that the whips announce the next week's meetings one week in advance, so we have not yet heard from the whips. Paul is quite correct. Our representative from the whip's office has contacted me. I'm not sure, Kelly or Ziad, if you have been contacted, but probably the best route is to communicate through your whips. I assume we will find out next week what the meeting schedule will be for the week of May 18.
- I haven't heard anything yet, and I'm not sure if any other member of this committee has heard from their whips.
- Paul, go ahead.
- The Clerk: Mr. Chair, the suggestion that the analysts and I are putting forward is that we identify which witnesses—and again Raphaëlle made the recommendation of those she read off who are isolated for our meetings eight and nine of yesterday's work plan— and that we contact them for the two meetings following May 15. I can't put down specific dates, but if the committee is interested in that proposal, we can put it to them for a decision.
- The Chair: Thank you, Paul.
- Are there comments, anyone?
- Kelly Block.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- I suggest that we contact our whips as soon as possible to voice our opinions as to whether or not we should be meeting on a statutory holiday. I don't know if we need to contact you, Tom, as a Conservative member, so you can communicate what we would prefer and then the others will do the same.
- I don't think it's necessary for us to ask staff to come in on a stat holiday to do this work. We could potentially catch up in the following weeks, but I would leave that for other colleagues to speak to.
- The Chair: Again, colleagues, the whips are the ones who will be determining the schedule. I've expressed my preference. For what it's worth, I've suggested because it is a stat holiday that we cancel the meeting outright and reschedule it, rather than have it on a stat holiday, but each of you, as was mentioned before, should get hold of your own whips and do it as quickly as possible.
- Mr. McCauley, did you have a comment or question?
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Yes. I have a comment.
- We brought this up before about wanting our witnesses to table their remarks in advance rather than reading them. In today's meeting I think we took what felt like 40 minutes just having witness statements at the beginning, and the minister was going on and on, and flipping back from French to English. I'm wondering if, again, we can discuss, as a group, to agree that we're not going to take up our committee time listening to people read a written speech.
- The second part is that I'm generally fine with postponing it. Maybe we can see if we can do it Tuesday morning before the virtual.... If not, we'll just move it back in the calendar.
- The Chair: Kelly, thank you. We've already discussed it once, but I'll turn it over to our clerk first, before I go to Mr. Green, about the problems with appending statements and going directly to questions. Because we're meeting virtually that's really not an option.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: I realize that, but there's nothing that says they have to be able to make a statement to begin.
- The Clerk: There's nothing that obliges a witness to make an opening statement. However, our previous practice of taking an opening statement and appending it to the evidence unfortunately requires a motion of the committee to do so. The committee isn't empowered to entertain this motion, pursuant to the order adopted by the House, so we find ourselves in a unique situation.
- Also, the speaking notes we got today for the witnesses in the second half we received anytime from last night to this morning. There was simply not enough time for us to translate them, to be able to distribute them to members ahead of time.
- These are some of the reasons for having witnesses deliver their opening statements before the committee. For the broader public to hear the comments of the witnesses is one of the reasons we've been doing that. I do understand the frustration members are having. We are hoping that we can regulate the technical issues soon.
- (1305)
- The Chair: Mr. Green, I think you had some comments.
- Mr. Matthew Green: I did. Thank you.
- I can appreciate members of the public who come in as experts and have their six minutes. What I'm having a difficult challenge with, though, is ministers who come in with a one-hour time limit, regurgitate what amounts to a press release, and then have their staff fumble around reanswering questions that have already been answered.
- If I can share this with you, I don't ever want to have to publicly interject with staff or cut people off. I don't like being put in a situation of having to do that, recognizing as the fourth party that all this time that's been used up affects my round and that I'm going to get bumped out. We've even seen members of the governing party and other folks get bumped out because of the fumbling that's happening here. If there's a motion or some way we can forgo or perhaps post the opening statements, or if they can be put out in a media release, I'd be happy with that. On the record, I don't want to get frustrated with having to interject because I'm not getting my time.
- The Chair: Thank you, Matthew.
- Before I go to Kelly Block—and correct me if I'm wrong, Paul— I suppose that if ministers are appearing, we would be able to contact them prior to their appearance and let them know that the committee would appreciate it if they could go directly to questions and somehow have their statements available but not read into the record.
- The Clerk: If we have their statements available, we could consider it as a brief and post it on the committee's website. Then you could ask the ministers to go directly to questions if you want. That is an option.
- The Chair: We'll go to Kelly Block first.
- Mrs. Kelly Block: Really quickly, Tom, I think that's an excellent suggestion. If we don't do that, then we should at least ask them to choose a language to give their statement in so that we don't have the fiasco we had today.
- The Chair: As you know, that's why I interjected halfway through, Kelly, and asked if a question started en français to complete it, and the same thing in English, so we didn't have to worry about spending precious seconds trying to wait for the interpretation to catch up.
- Colleagues, that takes us back to Raphaëlle's presentation. We have the list of witnesses. I've heard no one else suggest that we add or delete any of the witnesses suggested, so are we comfortable with going forward with the work plan and the witnesses who have been proposed?
- Paul, do we need a recorded vote for this?
- The Clerk: I think Madame Vignola would like to intervene, Mr. Chair.
- Mr. Francis Drouin: I would too, after that.
- The Chair: Yes, it's Julie first and then Francis.
- [Translation]
- Mrs. Julie Vignola: I'd like to make a suggestion.
- Often, when time is short and we start another five-minute round, Mr. Green and I do not get a second turn. If there doesn't seem to be enough time for everyone to have a turn, could we go to three minutes? That way, we could each have a little bit of time.
- [English]
- The Chair: Yes, Madame Vignola, you're quite correct. The committee has the ability to set whatever time frame we want. I have arbitrarily done that on a few occasions and cut the times off from six to five to four minutes in an attempt to get as many questions in as possible.
- I will take that under consideration, and going forward if it looks as though we're not going to be able to get two complete rounds or the third round in, I will propose that we cut down the time allotted to see if that meets the concurrence and the agreement of committee members.
- Francis, I think we have you up next.
- (1310)
- Mr. Francis Drouin: I just have a question with regard to one particular witness, and that's Amazon. I know we had all submitted our lists before, but there has been some clarity provided with regard to the role that Amazon is playing, and I would just ask if it's still the will of Mr. Green to propose that particular witness.
- Mr. Matthew Green: It is absolutely, 100%.
- Mr. Francis Drouin: Okay, so you want the same answer?
- Mr. Matthew Green: No, I want them in front of our committee. That is what I want, Frank.
- The Chair: Raphaëlle, having heard that, can I entrust you to try to make sure we incorporate a representative from Amazon to appear at the appropriate time?
- Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe: Yes, it is already included, Mr. Chair.
- The Chair: Thank you very much.
- Are there any other questions or comments? We are running a little over time, and our technicians do have to leave to start setting up another meeting.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Just really quickly, when can we get the updated schedule?
- The Chair: The schedule is already out for next week.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Sorry, Tom. I mean the updated witness list, not the meeting schedule.
- The Clerk: If I may, Mr. Chair, we hope to publish a notice of meeting today. If not, we will publish one on the weekend.
- Mr. Kelly McCauley: Thank you.
- The Clerk: Mr. Chair, if it is the intention of the committee to adopt the proposal that was put forward by the analyst, this should be done by a recorded division.
- Do you want me to proceed to that right now?
- The Chair: Yes, please, Paul, if you wouldn't mind.
- (Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)
- Thank you, Paul, and thank you all.
- I'll just give a brief goodbye. We'll see everyone again on Monday from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m., eastern time.
- Thank you all. Have a very good weekend, and stay safe.
- The meeting is adjourned.
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Report on Committee Hearings
Name of Committee: Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates
Report prepared by: Patrick Gray, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Date and time: May 4, 2020; 2:02 p.m. – 3:59 p.m.
Location: Webcast
Subject: The Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic (Allocation of Emergency Benefits)
Witnesses
- Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
- Glenn Purves, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector
- Marcia Santiago, Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates
- Department of Finance
- Andrew Marsland, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch
- Alison McDermott, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy
- Branch
- Evelyn Dancey, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch
- Suzy McDonald, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch
- Leah Anderson, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch
Highlights
The Committee met for the fourth time as part of its study on the Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic. Supported by testimony from Finance Canada and TBS officials, the Committee considered the allocation of federal emergency benefits.
Questions to TBS witnesses focused on changes to the Supply and Estimates process, and on whether the Treasury Board has continued to play a role in overseeing spending. Neither issue was raised or discussed in a contentious manner, though members will likely continue to expect and ask questions about transparency, oversight, and accountability as far as financial procedures are concerned.
The vast majority of questions were directed to Finance Canada witnesses and dealt with the eligibility and accessibility of federal emergency benefits, their costs, duration, and susceptibility to change as time goes on. Members also asked about the prospect of future fiscal updates or budgets, specific details on supports for the energy sector (CPC), and the eligibility of businesses that make use of tax havens (BQ).
Follow-ups
There were a number of questions to which follow-up responses were committed, either voluntarily by witnesses, or at the Chair’s request when insufficient time was available for a complete response. All undertakings will be verified against the meeting transcript.
There were no follow-up engagements for TBS.
- How much financial support is available to businesses who have re-tooled toward PPE production? (Kelly Block, CPC)
- Mr. Marsland committed to providing a response
- More detail on effects on unfunded liabilities of public service pension funds (Kelly McCauley, CPC)
- Ms. McDermott committed to providing a response
- More information on increases to Crown Corporation debt (Kelly McCauley, CPC)
- No time for response
- Number of applicants to the CEWS (Irek Kusmierczyk, LPC)
- Mr. Marsland committed to providing a response
- CERB eligibility for sole proprietors who do not pay themselves a wage (Yasmin Ratansi, LPC)
- No time for response
- Information on the tax gap (Julie Vignola, BQ)
- Mr. Marsland committed to providing a response
- Information on CERB eligibility for seasonal workers (Xavier Barsalou-Duval, BQ)
- Ms. McDonald committed to providing a response
Next Steps
The Committee concluded the meeting with a 15-minute public discussion on future business. The Chair and Liberal members requested that efforts be made to minimize instances in which witnesses are invited to provide testimony that another Standing Committee may already have received. Kelly McCauley (CPC) expressed great interest in hearing again from the Minister and Deputy Minister of PSPC in order to question them on recent perceived contradictions in messaging.
Forward outlook:
- Friday, May 8, 2020, from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. – Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic (federal employees)
- TBS, PSC, Union representatives
- Monday, May 11, 2020 from 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m. - Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic (delivery of emergency benefits)
- Minister of Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, Minister of National Revenue, CRA Officials
- Friday, May 15, 2020 from 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. - Government’s Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic (federal procurement and the NESS)
- Witnesses from PHAC, PSPS DM, and PSPC ADM, Procurement
Meeting Summary
Questions and Answers
Questions from CPC members focused on:
- The Estimates process, whether the Government intends to make use of Special Warrants, the validity of Departmental Plans (Kelly McCauley)
- A (Mr. Purves): There will be an appropriation act in June, and another in December. The mechanism for Special Warrants exists, but it is difficult to predict whether it will be used. Departmental Plans remain valid as far as the Main Estimates are concerned. The Departmental Results Reports for the fiscal year will reflect the exceptional nature of ongoing departmental operations.
- COVID-19 spending and Treasury Board approval and oversight processes (Kelly McCauley)
- A (Mr. Purves): TB authority is provided where required. The substantive roles of the TB President and Committee have not changed. The Comptroller General has been working with departments as far as accounting is concerned.
- The state of the Employment Insurance account (Ziad Aboultaif)
- Recuperation of CERB disbursement to ineligible recipients (Ziad Aboultaif)
- The CEBA (how many have applied, how much $ is available, will eligibility be adjusted for those who do not qualify) (Ziad Aboultaif, Kelly McCauley)
- A (Ms. Anderson): There have been 520K applicants, and there is $20B available. Revisiting eligibility based on feedback is a current and ongoing priority. No exact timeline available.
- The Cost of PPE procurement (Kelly Block)
- A (Mr. Marsland): Our FINA reports outline the amounts dedicated to those areas. So far, $4.4B, most of which is to purchase PPE, but also includes funding to assist provinces and territories and supports for medical research and vaccine development.
- The sustainability and longevity of emergency benefits (Kelly Block)
- A (Ms. McDermott): Longevity changes for each individual measure. Too early to know if any will need to be extended. Overall intent is for duration over the short to medium-term (few months).
- Department of Finance fiscal forecasting, including specific details on Crown Corporation debt increases or unfunded liabilities for public service pension funds (Kelly McCauley)
- A (Ms. McDermott): Fiscal forecasting is challenging right now. No definitive timeframe at this point.
- Support for specific industries, namely, the energy industry, for which the Minister of Finance has promised supports (Kelly McCauley)
- A (Ms. Dancey): Broad-based economic supports have been rolled out to most businesses. There has been detailed work to engage with specific sectors. Government has announced sectoral measures, including some targeted to the energy sector (well clean-up and emissions fund, Export Development Canada and BDC response to specific energy sector financing challenges).
- Details on the CECRA (Ziad Aboultaif)
- A (Ms. Anderson): CMHC will lead on delivery and begin mid-May. Landlords will work with CMHC.
Questions from LPC members focused on:
- The TB approval process and emergency spending (Majid Jowhari)
- A (Mr. Purves): Spending authorities are provided by Bills C-13 to 15. TB examines the policy, program authorities, and operational authorities to ensure those elements are considered and aligned with spending. TB is only involved where needed and where there are gaps. There are areas where Ministers have authorities to make adjustments. In those instances, TB ensures the legal mandate is respected.
- A (Ms. McDermott): Emergency Response Plan authority flows primarily from statutes. FINA receives regular reports on how those Response Plan elements are rolling out.
- CEBA eligibility for businesses who issue T4As instead of T4s, or others who are ineligible (Yasmin Ratansi, Francis Drouin)
- A (Ms. Anderson): CEBA is based on payroll. We are aware some do not qualify and are looking at what additional supports could be appropriate.
- Rent relief for entities without a mortgage, or with a mortgage but whose landlords are not participating in the relief program (Majid Jowhari, Yasmin Ratansi)
- A (Ms. Anderson): The CMHC has indicated that if a landlord does not have a mortgage, they should contact the CMHC to come up with a different mechanism. Landlords and tenants can work together to find solutions. The program will be designed so that it is available to property owners without mortgages.
- Consultation with stakeholders in designing emergency benefits (Francis Drouin)
- Supplemental EI Benefits, which are not permitted under CERB (Irek Kusmierczyk)
Questions from the BQ focused on:
- Alignment of emergency measures with eventual economic re-opening (Julie Vignola)
- A (Ms. McDermott): It is a bit early to make decisions in this regard. If measures need to be extended, they will be, but difficult to tell at present if this will be required. These are important considerations. Economic restart decisions are being driven by health considerations and being taken at the provincial level. We are collaborating to ensure those decisions are well-supported.
- Benefits for businesses making use of “tax havens” (Julie Vignola)
- A (Mr. Marsland): The Government is working to reduce tax evasion and has invested significant amounts in recent years to bolster the CRA’s abilities in this regard. The objective of these measures is to preserve jobs and employment. There is no accepted definition of a tax haven or commonly accepted terminology. The CRA has done estimates of the tax gap, which I can follow-up to provide.
- Support provided to seasonal workers and self-employed workers (Marc Serré, Xavier Barsalou-Duval)
- A (Ms. McDonald): We developed a program to ensure that those who have gone through their EI benefits can apply to the CERB, including seasonal workers. We are still examining and re-evaluating, but the program was not implemented to support everybody, many programs work in concert to do so. ESDC is also examining the issue.
Questions from the NDP focused on:
- CERB eligibility (Matthew Green)
- A (Ms. McDermott): The priority for the CERB was rapidity, and the government has been and continues to work to close perceived gaps including for other vulnerable members of the population.
- A (Ms. McDonald): Policy has evolved to reach broader span of people and support in general has broadened to include students, seasonal workers, etc.
- The cost of a $2,000 universal income benefit (Matthew Green)
- A (Mr. Marsland): Difficult question to answer as so reliant on design. At face value, the cost of a benefit to all adults is remarkably high. The net cost would defend on the program design.
- Will there be rent relief in the residential market (Matthew Green)
- A (Ms. Anderson): Rent is generally an area of provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have taken steps to assist residential renters.
- The Minister of Finance authority provided by Bill C-13 to establish a corporation (Matthew Green)
- A (Ms. Anderson): Builds on power used during 2008 financial crisis. Another tool for financial stability if required.
Report on standing committee hearing
Name of Committee: Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (House of Commons)
Report prepared by: Brent Mills, Parliamentary Analyst, 613-543-6857
Date and time: Monday, 4 May 2020 (2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.)
Subject: The government’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic
Overview and Key Issues:
The Committee met in order to hear from officials from the Department of Finance and Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat as it studied the government’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic. For additional information, please consult the meeting notice.
The tone of the meeting was cordial and professional, with questions focusing on eligibility requirements of the COVID-19 support programs, risk modelling, future programs and the economic recovery post-COVID-19.
Below is a summary of the exchanges that took place over the course of the meeting.
Conservative Party (CPC)
- MP Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West): Addressing TBS, MP McCauley requested information on the Estimates process during the COVID-19 pandemic and if departmental plans are still valid. Next, he asked if the Government intends to use the Governor General warrants, as allowed in Bill C-13. Turning to the oversight function of TBS, MP McCauley probed how the TBS spending approval process has been adapted to the new spending announcements and if TBS been in contact with the Auditor General on oversight.
In his second round of questioning, MP McCauley reiterated the gaps in the CEBA and requested a specific plan for addressing them. He then asked if the Department of Finance had conducted forecasts on several subjects: the fiscal framework; changes to the tax code; costs associated with bailing out certain industries (airlines, energy sector, hospitality); the costs of not bailing out these industries; the unfunded liabilities of public service pensions; and the debt of crown corporations. MP McCauley also asked when further support for the energy industry will be announced. - MP Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning) noted that the EI system usually reports surpluses. He asked how the pandemic has affected the EI account. He then expressed concern that individuals who are not eligible for support are receiving it regardless. On the CEBA, MP Aboultaif asked how many businesses have applied for the loan. Turning to the overall economic situation, he asked how much money has been spent overall and, if these program last until the autumn, how much money will be spent.
In his second round, MP Aboultaif focused on the Canada Emergency Commercial Rent Assistance program. Given that many landlords will not participate in the program, he asked how the government communicated the program landlords before it was released. He then probed how the Department of Finance selected the 70% of decline in revenue as one of the eligibility criteria. He suggested that banks might be better able to implement the program than the CMHC is. On that theme, MP Aboultaif asked why the CMHC is not getting involved with landlords who are refusing to take advantage of the program, and who has the authority to force the CMHC to take action. - MP Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek): MP Block opened by noting that the government is spending a staggering amount of money. She asked how much Health Canada and PSPC is spending on PPE procurement. In regards to PPE production, MP Block inquired if money is available for manufacturers that are retooling to produce PPE. Echoing MP Aboultaif, she asked how long these programs will last with current funding, and if they are meant to be long-term solutions to the crisis.
Bloc Québécois (BQ)
- MP Julie Vignola (Beauport—Limoilou) requested information on the measures the government can take to ensure that the economic recovery is as rapid as possible and that the recovery emphasises green development. On the subject of tax havens, MP Vignola asked if subsidies funneled to businesses that use tax havens. She then requested an estimate of how much tax the government loses due to the use of tax havens.
In her second round, MP Vignola requested clarification on the difference between the 10% and the 75% wage subsidy. Finally, she asked what measures the government is taking to prepare for the second wave of COVID-19. - MP Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères) raised the situation of seasonal workers who depend on EI in the winter. He asked if EI benefits be available for them in late-2020. On the CERB, he asked if the policy will be adapted to be more flexible on the $1000 maximum income for eligibility, so that people are not encouraged to turn down additional work to keep the benefit.
New Democratic Party (NDP)
- MP Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre) emphasised that people are being left out of the programs. Regarding the CERB, MP Green asked officials to comment on the decision-making process for its design, and how the eligibility requirements were selected. In addition, MP Green requested the projections of the cost of the CERB and the after-tax costs of a universal basic income.
In his second round, MP Green asked why renters in the retail market did not receive any support. Next, he inquired if the Federal Government will pay construction costs to stimulate the economy. Under Bill C-13, the Minister of Finance can establish a corporation to promote stability in the financial system. MP Green asked why this power exists.
In his third round, MP Green probed how the liquidity supports for businesses are being financed. He then noted that new theories on monetary policy are being developed and wondered if the Department of Finance is exploring them. Finally, MP Green asked if the liquidity supports constitute quantitative easing.
Liberal Party (LPC)
- MP Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill) asked officials to expand on TBS’ and Finance’s role in approving the emergency spending for COVID-19. In particular, MP Jowhari wanted more information on approval processes for increasing financing for existing programs. In regards to rent subsidy program, MP Jowhari noted that many landlords do not have mortgages, so they don’t qualify for aid.
- MP Marc Serré (Nickel Belt): Echoing MP Barsalou-Duval, MP Serré asked how the CERB will apply to seasonal workers and people who are approaching the end of their EI benefits. Next, he requested information on the controls ensuring that banks are delivering money to businesses fairly and securely. Due to COVID-19, public entities, such as universities and municipalities, are struggling. MP Serré asked if the Federal government is planning to extend support to these entities. Finally, he inquired if the Federal Government is considering removing the platform for debt for the Territories.
- MP Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East) noted that many businesses issue T4As instead of T4s or pay dividends in place of salaries, making them ineligible for the CEBA. MP Ratansi asked why the CEBA has this restriction. On rent relief, MP Ratansi echoed the point that many landlords do not have mortgages. As a result, they do not give relief to their tenants. In addition, some landlords refuse to take part in the program for other reasons. MP Ratansi asked how the government will manage this situation. Turning to the CERB, MP Ratansi noted that some sole proprietors did not pay themselves a wage prior to COVID-19. As a result, they cannot prove $5000 in income, making them ineligible for the CERB. She asked what these individuals should do.
- MP Francis Drouin (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell) asked for a description of the process of consultation for the COVID-19 measures. He noted similar cases of small businesses falling through the cracks and expressed hope that the government would rectify the situation soon.
- MP Irek Kusmierczyk (Windsor—Tecumseh): Under normal times, EI claimants can receive a supplemental top-up of their wages. This is not permitted under the CERB. MP Kusmierczyk asked for the Department of Finance’s position on the SUBP program. On the Wage Subsidy, MP Kusmierczyk asked how many employees are utilising the program and how the Wage Subsidy will impact ability to recover. Finally, he asked which indicators the government is using to ensure that programs are effective.
Next Steps:
The next OGGO meeting will be held from 11:00 AM – 1:00 PM on Friday, 8 May 2020. The meeting times for next week will be published soon.
Follow Ups:
The following questions will require a written answer to be tabled with the clerk:
- MP Aboultaif asked why the CMHC is not getting involved with landlords who are refusing to take advantage of the rent program, and he asked who has the authority to force the CMHC to take action.
- MP McCauley asked if Finance has analysed the effect of COVID-19 on the unfunded liabilities of public service pension funds and on crown corporation debt.
- On the Wage Subsidy, MP Kusmierczyk asked how many employees are utilising the program.
- MP Ratansi noted that some sole proprietors did not pay themselves a wage prior to COVID-19. As a result, they cannot prove $5000 in income, making them ineligible for the CERB. She asked what these individuals should do.
Parliamentary Affairs will review the transcripts and task these questions accordingly.
Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic (COVI) – Committee of the Whole – May 5, 2020
At approximately 12:01 p.m., the Committee was called to order by the Chair (Speaker of the House). The Chair called for the observation of a moment of silence for the Canadian Armed Forces members who lost their lives off the coast of Greece. The Dominion Carrilonneur today is conducting a concert in the Peace Tower to commemorate the anniversary of the Liberation of the Netherlands in the Second World War.
Statements by Ministers:
Petitions:
N/A
None for CRA
Topics: Calls for a study into “national opt out program”; Fentanyl issue (safe sources will reduce criminal activity); Firearms regulations (petitioners note this will not eliminate gun violence. Stop targeting law abiding firearms holders, instead should be focused on gang violence).
Question to Ministers:
Paul Hus (CPC): Why is the PM misleading Canadians on COVID-19?
- Prime Minister: We promised to ban assault type weapons and that’s what we are going to do.
Paul Hus (CPC): Does the PM think that gangs are going to hand in their weapons?
- Prime Minister: I hope the Conservatives will join us in a productive conversation
Paul Hus (CPC): We have heard that dangerous criminals were released during the pandemic. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether any dangerous criminal was released during this pandemic?
- Prime Minister: We had to strike the right balance in this situation. We had to think of the safety of Canadians first.
Paul Hus (CPC): Will Canada call on the Chinese government to be more transparent?
- Prime Minister: We are going to talk to the Chinese and we are also going to make sure that there are enough PPEs for all Canadians
Yves-François Blanchet (BQ): Increase Old Age Security up to 100 dollars a week. What is the PM doing to find a solution to help seniors?
- Prime Minister: We have taken steps for income replacement. We have had GST refund for Seniors. We have put forward $9M to help seniors. We will have more to say in the coming days.
Yves-François Blanchet (BQ): Regarding the cost of groceries for seniors. When will seniors receive something to help them with their cost increases?
- Prime Minister: We are going to make announcements to help seniors. We must be there for our seniors. We must fight for them.
Laurel Collins (NDP): Will PM remove restrictive eligibility criteria to some of the benefits?
- Prime Minister: We have moved forward very quickly with the CERB
Laurel Collins (NDP): Why are some Canadians being left out?
- Prime Minister: We will continue to provide support to Canadians. 7 million Canadians have so far received the CERB
Laurel Collins (NDP): Offshore tax havens. Will the Government prevent companies who use offshore tax havens from receiving benefit?
- Prime Minister: We have moved forward with the wage subsidy to help workers.
Laurel Collins (NDP): Regarding solutions for the homelessness. Will the Federal government produce a strategy for the homeless?
- Prime Minister: Our strategy is working, We have reduced homelessness by half.
Joel Godin: Point of Order. Could not hear the PM:
Mr. Scheer (CPC): Gap in the wage subsidy program. Because of the rules were designed by to prevent some companies from accessing the benefits. When will the PM fix that?
- Prime Minister: In the coming days we will be able to deliver some good news to Brent Tractor.
Mr. Scheer (CPC): The plan to help businesses with rent, Will PM amend these programs to provide more flexibility?
- Prime Minister: We are going to work to try and respond to these situations.
Mr. Scheer (CPC): People receiving CERB. Progressive system to help people get back to work. Will the PM build in some flexibility to help people go back to work?
- Prime Minister: I hear the concerns. We are going to work with Canadians for a solution.
Marilyn Gladu (CPC): When will the Government keep their promise to seniors?
- Minister of Seniors: We have introduced a GST credit in April.
Marilyn Gladu (CPC): Essential travel. When will the rules be clarified to CBSA about border crossing?
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: We recognize the importance of essential workers across the border.
Marilyn Gladu (CPC): Owner not eligible for benefits. What is the Government going to do to help those who are not eligible?
- Minister of Finance: CEBA has the broadest application. We shall have more to say on that in days to come.
Mel Arnold (CPC): Fisheries and Oceans When will Minister start opening the fisheries?
- Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard: We heard from all the harvesters that they want to start on the same date
Mel Arnold (CPC): Will minister support the fisheries?
- Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard: We making sure we are delivering the support that the industry needs.
Mel Arnold (CPC): Seniors: Why has this government to not provided support for seniors?
- Minister of Seniors: GST credit has been. CERB is also for seniors.
Mel Arnold (CPC): What is the Government doing to help students seeking employment in Agriculture?
- Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion: We have dedicated the measures for employers to hire students.
Rachael Harder (CPC): Would the ban have stopped the massacre in Nova Scotia?
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: The police agree with the Government.
Rachael Harder (CPC): Will criminals see their guns seized?
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: These weapons have been used in this country.
Rachael Harder (CPC): Agriculture: Why is the government doing to help beef producers?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: We have been working hard to support cattle producers.
Rachael Harder (CPC): Meat packing plants. Cattle farmers. When will government produce a set-aside strategy for beef producers?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Our government support our farmers. We are here for them.
James Bezan (CPC): Update as to cyclone helicopter crash.
- Minister of National Defence: Investigation is ongoing. The investigators are on the ground now.
James Bezan (CPC): On what date did the Minister get his first update of the pandemic in China?
- Minister of National Defence: Following this crisis since day 1. Cannot discuss the intelligence.
James Bezan (CPC): In early January, it was made aware of the outbreak. When were you made aware?
- Minister of National Defence: I was made aware of this in January.
James Bezan (CPC): When did you give the information to the appropriate officials? How long after you were briefed?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: We have been working on this from very very early on. In January we increase testing at airports.
Gabriel Ste-Marie (BQ): Andre Laroux who is an expert in Business tax haven said that there is Canadian Money in 12 tax havens. Will the government take this opportunity to make the use of tax Havens illegal?
- Minister of National Revenue: Since we came to power we have been fighting against tax fraud, this has been a priority for our government. We have invested almost $1B in this area. I can understand my colleague’s impatience, Mr. Chair, but you must understand that this type of file is extremely complex , regardless. Under our leadership, the Agency has carried out twice as many audits over three years than the preceding ten years under the Conservatives. Currently the CRA is carrying out more than fifty investigations related to international tax evasion.
Gabriel Ste-Marie (BQ): Indeed , I am very impatient, because each time I discuss the legal use of tax havens by businesses. The Minister does not respond to that specific issue. Denmark and Poland have taken action, even France. Government is giving a lot of banks liquidity. Banks using tax havens to shield their profits. When will the government seize this opportunity to make the use of tax Havens illegal?
- Minister of National Revenue: Our government is taking unprecedented steps in order to support businesses and employees who are affected by COVID-19. This is an extremely solid program and we will not tolerate abuse of this program. We will ensure that anyone who tries to get around the rules, will be exposed to significant consequences. In addition, applicants will have to have someone be a guarantor to their request and any request deemed ineligible will have to refund the money and may have to pay sanctions of [a significant percentage] of the amount and a penalty of up to five years imprisonment. The CRA has multiple mechanisms to detect fraudulent request. Tax evasion is a priority for our government.
Gabriel Ste-Marie (BQ): Immoral use of tax havens. When will the government seize this opportunity to make the use of tax havens illegal?
- Minister of National Revenue: We have made investment of $1B and in addition, the Government has given the CRA the resources it needs in order to do it’s work and we are starting to see results. I have created an expert advisory panel which is giving us recommendations . In addition, we have tightened the rules of the Voluntary Disclosure Program. We have created country by country agreements for tax information. We are working with the OECD.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Reopening will require working together with premieres of provinces and territories.
Heather McPherson (NDP): meat packing plants – Government did not put effective safety protocols in place as requested. Employees forced back to work.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Decisions being made by local and provincial health authorities. Any Canadian that is feeling unwell should stay home.
Heather McPherson (NDP): Knowing workers have the right to refuse unsafe work – will they be able to access CERB?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: No Canadian worker should feel obliged to work in unsafe conditions. In a time of Coronavirus, the government should not penalize workers in not feeling safe to go to work.
Heather McPherson (NDP): Workers are calling for the plant to be shut down. 85% of workers scared to go to work.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Canadian Food Inspection Agency – The duties of food inspection agency, we are working with health authorities.
Heather McPherson (NDP): If company has received federal funding for COVID-19 related support?
- Minister of National Revenue: Mr. Speaker this is a difficult period for Canadians, More than seven million Canadians have requested the CERB, The program is administered by the CRA and Shared Services Canada and I would just to say that I am very proud of their work. The employees have worked day and night to set up this program in a record amount of time. Minister Qualtrough who is responsible for creating the eligibility criteria.
Richard Bragdon (CPC): Potato Farmers – 300 million dollars of potatoes still left in storage. How will the government help.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Proud of great potato farmers. Program announced today will be very helpful for potato farmers. (food surplus program)
Richard Bragdon (CPC): Announced funding today doesn’t cover the loss.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: $252M on top of broad range that workers have access to. This is a specific area of concern. 125 million specifically going towards beef, pork and poultry.
Richard Bragdon (CPC): If farmhouse is on fire, government is offering equivalent of bucket of water. Is there a plan to provide more?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: $252 million isn’t a small amount. $77 million to support food processors announced today and 250 million to add to Dairy commissions credit.
Cathay Wagantall (CPC): why is the government handing out windfall to teenagers living at home but not supporting seniors in need?
- Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion: Everyone who lost income is eligible for the CERB.
Cathay Wagantall (CPC): Clearly high school students do not need this money as college students and seniors do. Why is the PM bent on [inaudible].
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: The evidence is overwhelming that these weapons have been used to kill. There is no place for these weapons in civil society.
Cathay Wagantall (CPC): How does she see that its right to be giving more to students and crumbs to agriculture?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Our government strongly support our farmers. $252 million dollars is real and meaningful and directed where needed. Farm kids will be benefitting from this benefit for students.
Richard Lehoux: [technical issues – not captured]
- Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion: We also need to create jobs. 76,000 jobs created – we know we need to work directly with employers. This is what we will continue to do. We are creating an income support mechanism. We know they want to work.
Richard Lehoux: Pork and beef producers are suffering. Need improved programs that haven’t yet been implemented. When will the government made this available to producers?
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: We have announced $77M to help. With 125 million dollars to help producers adjust.
Richard Lehoux: Measures just announced have been well received by the sector. We need to support the agri-support sector. For many workers in this sector, this is crucial. We need something done quickly before our country becomes dependent on our neighbours.
- Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Canada will never be dependent on our neighbours for what we eat as Canada has grain, pork and beef production.
Blaine Calkins (CPC): Firearms question [inaudible]
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: We have made it clear that these weapons have no place in civil society. We will bring forward legislation to better deal at the border. We are also bringing in new regulations for storage of weapons.
Blaine Calkins (CPC): This affects duck hunters because of 10 gauge and 12 gauge shotguns.
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: The hunters are not affected as they do not fall under new legislation.
Blaine Calkins (CPC): There is no announcement about buy back for firearm owners. What was the immediate benefit?
- Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness: Can’t be sold or transferred, there will be a buy back measures. Extensive investigation going on as to how the specified individual obtained his weapon. Similar bans in other countries such as new Zealand and Australia.
Paul Manly (GP): All citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors. Taiwan has effectively stopped the outbreak with providing hand sanitizers and masks. Will Canada follow Taiwan’s example?
- Minister of Health: There are many other measures taken. Canadians must practice social distancing – this is the most effective solution.
Paul Manly (GP): Seniors falling through the cracks, will the government make the CERB universal to help people who need help like seniors?
- Minister of Seniors: CERB is there for working seniors who have lost their jobs as well. We have spent millions in terms of supporting organizations who are supporting vulnerable citizens.
Paul Manly (GP): Many small businesses are missing out. Large companies are using tax havens. Will the government make sure small business needs are met?
- Minister of Small Business and Export Promotion: Small businesses are incredibly important, which is why we’ve implemented many measures to help.
Paul Manly (GP): Climate emergency – economic recovery plan?
- Jonathan Wilkinson (CPC): Combating the virus is the most important issue at hand right now.
Niki Ashton (NDP): Federal government has done nothing to help overcrowded hospitals and housing. There may very well be a second wave. Can the government act in time for potential second wave of this outbreak?
- Minister of Indigenous Services: There are many measures that we will deploy. Looking for a medical solution for a medical problem.
Niki Ashton (NDP): Many of us across Northern Canada – outbreak started from a worker in Fort McMurray, these work camps put public health at risk during pandemic. Will you support First Nations calling for shutdowns during this pandemic?
- Minister of Indigenous Services: We are working with surrounding First Nation communities. Social distancing put into effect.
Niki Ashton (NDP): Many work camps where people are very concerned about First Nations. Will you support temporary shutdowns at this time?
- Minister of Indigenous Services: Targeted approach needed.
Niki Ashton (NDP): Emergency support needed for communities here at home. Inland fishers support coming?
- Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard: We know COVID-19 is having a great impact on northern communities. We announced 15 million in non-repayable support for businesses. We are doing everything we can.
Claude DeBellefeuille: Why is she not using this current context and looking to countries looking to end tax avoidance? End these tax avoidances.
- Minister of National revenue: Since 2015, we made tax fraudsters a priority. A billion dollars was put into this and we also gave the CRA the resources to be able to do this work and we are seeing results. Advisory council created, voluntary disclosure rules tightened.
Claude DeBellefeuille (BQ): She is not answering my question. Talking about companies using legal means by putting money in tax havens. How many companies using tax avoidance measure? How much money is the government losing to this?
- Minister of National Revenue: This is a very complex file and under previous government, this was not a priority. Our government has done twice as many audits in 3 years as were done in 10 years under the Conservatives.
Claude DeBellefeuille (BQ): There is a federation for agriculture that is trying to contact this government about being non-eligible for loans.
- Minister of Finance: We know that its very important that our emergency benefits are there for people who need them. That is why we are constantly reviewing these challenges. I’ll be looking at any correspondence I receive.
Blake Richards (CPC): Tourism specific A package promised and not followed through on yet. Unemployment rate of 85% or higher. Are seasonal businesses and therefore don’t qualify. Will the government help out seasonal businesses? How will it help the tourism industry.
- Minister of Economic Development: They will have access to [wage subsidy?]. Open to hearing specific cases.
Blake Richards (CPC): Oil and Gas industry – there has been no help but it was promised. Will liberal government bring forward a plan?
- Minister of Natural Resources: CEWS put in place, more liquidity for oil and gas industry, we continue to step forward on this.
Blake Richards (CPC): Won’t help industry to recover. Expediting private sector projects putting many Canadians back to work an option?
- Minister of Natural Resources: We’ve been concentrating on workers and companies supporting those workers. Alberta program a success.
Committee adjourned 2:01pm
Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (OGGO)
Chairperson
Tom Lukiwski (CPC)
Date of Birth: 1951.10.05
Profession: Businessman, political administrator
First Elected: 2004.06.28
Constituency: Moose Jaw--Lake Centre--Lanigan
Key Issues:
- None
Written Questions:
- Q-2092 — December 10, 2019 — Mr. Lukiwski (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre-Lanigan) — With regard to the national security exception for federal procurements, since January 1, 2016: how many times has this exception been invoked, broken down by
- date of contract,
- department,
- contract amount?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - Q-3522 — February 21, 2020 — Mr. Lukiwski (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre-Lanigan) — With regard to all expenditures on hospitality (Treasury Board Object Code 0822), since November 1, 2019, broken down by department or agency: what are the details of all expenditures, including
- vendor,
- amount,
- date of expenditure,
- start and end date of contract,
- description of goods or services provided,
- file number,
- number of government employees in attendance,
- number of other attendees,
- description of related hospitality event,
- location?
The reply was tabled on April 11, 2020.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Vice-Chairs
Francis Drouin (Lib.)
Date of Birth: 1983-10-07
Profession: Communication consultant, political assistant
First Elected: 2015.10.19
Constituency: Glengarry--Prescott--Russell
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA
Written Questions:
- Nil for the CRA
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Julie Vignola (BQ)
Date of Birth: N/A
Profession: Teacher, assistant principal
First Elected: 2019-10-21
Constituency: Beauport--Limoilou
Key Issues:
- Nil for CRA
Written Questions:
- Nil for CRA
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Members
Ziad Aboultaif (CPC)
Date of Birth: 1966
Profession: Business owner
First Elected: 2015.10.19
Constituency: Edmonton Manning
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA
Written Questions:
- Q-962 — December 6, 2019 — Mr. Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning) — With regards to government computers and cyberattacks:
- what is the government’s policy when a ransomware attack occurs; and
- has any department, agency, Crown corporation or other government entity made any payments to any individuals or organizations as a result of a ransomware attack since November 4, 2015, and, if so, what are the details, including
- date,
- amount,
- form of payment,
- recipient of payment, if known?
Signed reply sent to PCO on January 15, 2020 – TBS responded on behalf of the Government. - Q-1422 — December 9, 2019 — Mr. Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning) — With regard to cybersecurity penetration testing, since January 1, 2016, and broken down by department or agency:
- has cybersecurity penetration testing occurred;
- was the penetration testing conducted internally or by an external contractor;
- if an external contractor was hired, what are the details of the contract, including the
- date and duration of contract,
- vendor,
- amount; and
- what was the nature of the penetration testing?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Kelly Block (CPC)
Date of Birth: 1961-11-30
Profession: Administrator
First Elected: 2008-10-14
Constituency: Carlton Trail--Eagle Creek
Key Issues:
- Canada Emergency Student Benefit
Written Questions:
- Q-922 — December 6, 2019 — Mrs. Block (Carlton Trail-Eagle Creek) — With regard to reports of bed bugs and other insect infestation in government buildings in the National Capital Region: what are the details of all such infestation reports since January 1, 2017, including
- name of building,
- address,
- type of infestation (bed bugs, wasps, etc.),
- was corrective action taken in response to the report, and, if so what action was taken,
- date of infestation report,
- date of corrective action,
- total amount spent on each of corrective action,
- number of employees sent home as a result of the infestation,
- dates on which employees were sent home?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - Q-932 — December 6, 2019 — Mrs. Block (Carlton Trail-Eagle Creek) — With regard to the 37,000 buildings owned by the government:
- how many buildings are above the occupancy capacity;
- how many buildings are at 100% capacity;
- how many buildings are between 90% and 100% capacity;
- how many buildings are between 80% and 90% capacity;
- how many buildings are between 70% and 80% capacity;
- how many buildings are between 60% and 70% capacity:
- how many buildings are between 50% and 60% capacity;
- how many buildings are under 50% capacity; and
- for buildings referred to in (h), what are the costs related to
- upkeep and maintenance,
- utilities,
- cleaning?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - Q-942 — December 6, 2019 — Mrs. Block (Carlton Trail-Eagle Creek) — With regard to the acquisition of buildings by government departments or agencies, since June 1, 2018, for each transaction:
- what is the location of the building,
- what is the amount paid,
- what is the type of building,
- what is the file number,
- what is the date of transaction,
- what is the reason for acquisition,
- who was the owner of building prior to government acquisition,
- what is the government-wide object code?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Matthew Green (NDP) (National Revenue Critic)
Date of Birth: N/A
Profession: City councillor, executive director
First Elected: 2019-10-21
Constituency: Hamilton Centre
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA
Written Questions:
- Q-3882 — March 5, 2020 — Mr. Green (Hamilton Centre) — With regard to the Paradise Papers case, the fight against tax non-compliance abroad and abusive tax planning:
- how many taxpayer or Canadian business files are currently open with the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA);
- how many taxpayer or Canadian business files have been referred to the Public Prosecution Service of Canada;
- what is the number of employees assigned to the Paradise Papers files;
- how many audits have been conducted since the Paradise Papers were disclosed;
- how many notices of assessment have been issued by the CRA; and
- what is the total amount recovered so far by the CRA?
Signed reply sent to PCO on April 17, 2020. - Q-3922 — March 5, 2020 — Mr. Green (Hamilton Centre) — With regard to the call centres of the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA), for the fiscal years 2017-18 and 2018-19, broken down by business and by individual:
- what is the number of calls received by the CRA;
- what is the number of calls that were neither answered by an agent nor transferred to the automated self-service system;
- what is the number of calls received by the automated self-service system;
- what is the number of calls answered by an agent;
- what is the number of calls not answered, broken down by
- the number of callers who did not choose to use self-service through the automated service,
- the number of callers who got a busy signal;
- what is the average time spent waiting to speak to an agent;
- what is the change in the number of agents, broken down by
- month,
- call centre;
- what is the error rate for call centre agents, broken down by
- National Quality and Accuracy Learning Program,
- Audit, Evaluation and Risk Branch; and
- what is the number of call centres that have completed the transition to the new telephony platform as part of the Government of Canada Contact Centre Transformation Initiative?
Signed reply sent to PCO on April 17, 2020. - Q-3932 — March 5, 2020 — Mr. Green (Hamilton Centre) — With regard to the sales tax system between 2011 and 2019, broken down by year:
- how many compliance audits have been conducted by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) to determine whether suppliers of digital goods and services are domestic or foreign and whether they are required to register for the Goods and Services Tax (GST) and the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST);
- for the compliance audits in (a), how many additional revenue assessments were issued as a result of these audits and what was the total amount;
- how many GST and HST forms had been submitted by consumers to the CRA for digital goods and services purchased in Canada from foreign suppliers not carrying on business in Canada or not having a permanent establishment in Canada;
- how many compliance audits have been conducted by the CRA to determine whether taxpayers in Canada who rent their housing for short periods of time are required to register for the GST and HST;
- for audits in (d), how many additional income assessments have been issued as a result of these audits and what is the total amount of these assessments; and
- has the CRA finalized the development of a specific compliance strategy to better detect and address GST and HST noncompliance in the e-commerce sector, and, if so, what are the details of this strategy?
Signed reply sent to PCO on April 17, 2020.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Majid Jowhari (Lib.)
Date of Birth: 1960-10-24
Profession: Business consultant
First Elected: 2015.10.19
Constituency: Richmond Hill
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA.
Written Questions:
- Nil for the CRA.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Irek Kusmierczyk (Lib.)
Date of Birth: N/A
Profession: City councillor
First Elected: 2019-10-21
Constituency: Windsor--Tecumseh
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA.
Written Questions:
- Nil for the CRA.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Steven MacKinnon (Lib.) (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement)
Date of Birth: 1966-09-28
Profession: Communication consultant, executive manager, political adviser
First Elected: 2015.10.19
Constituency: Gatineau
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA.
Written Questions:
- Nil for the CRA.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Kelly McCauley (CPC)
Date of Birth: 1964.06.23
Profession: Hotel manager
First Elected: 2015.10.19
Constituency: Edmonton West
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA.
Written Questions:
- Q-1892 — December 10, 2019 — Mr. McCauley (Edmonton West) — With regard to ministerial travel between June 21, 2019, and September 11, 2019:
- how much money was spent by each minister and their accompanying staff, per trip, on
- accommodation,
- flights, including number of flights,
- car rentals, including number of cars,
- fuel claims,
- meals,
- incidentals;
- how many staff members were on each trip, broken down by ministerial staff and departmental staff; and
- what was the destination and purpose of each trip?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - how much money was spent by each minister and their accompanying staff, per trip, on
- Q-1902 — December 10, 2019 — Mr. McCauley (Edmonton West) — With regard to ministerial travel between June 21, 2018, and September 11, 2018:
- how much money was spent by each minister and their accompanying staff, per trip, on
- accommodation,
- flights, including number of flights,
- car rentals, including number of cars,
- fuel claims,
- meals,
- incidentals;
- how many staff members were on each trip, broken down by ministerial staff and departmental staff; and
- what was the destination and purpose of each trip?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - how much money was spent by each minister and their accompanying staff, per trip, on
- Q-4252 — April 16, 2020 — Mr. McCauley (Edmonton West) — With regard to government purchases of personal protective equipment (PPE):
- how many units of PPE did the government have in Canada by November 30, 2019, broken down by type of equipment, and how much PPE was purchased in this month;
- how many units of PPE did the government have in Canada by December 31, 2019, broken down by type of equipment, and how much PPE was purchased in this month;
- how many units of PPE did the government have in Canada by January 31, 2020, broken down by type of equipment, and how much PPE was purchased in this month;
- how many units of PPE did the government have in Canada by February 29, 2020, broken down by type of equipment, and how much PPE was purchased in this month; and
- how many units of PPE did the government have in Canada by March 31, 2020, broken down by type of equipment, and how much PPE was purchased in this month?
Response being prepared by Human Resources Branch and Finance Administration Branch.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Patrick Weiler (Lib.)
Date of Birth: N/A
Profession: Lawyer, research officer
First Elected: 2019-10-21
Constituency: West Vancouver--Sunshine Coast--Sea to Sky Country
Key Issues:
- Nil for the CRA.
Written Questions:
- Nil for the CRA.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
Associate Members
Marty Morantz (CPC) (National Revenue Critic)
Date of Birth: N/A
Profession: Lawyer, city councillor
First Elected: 2019-10-21
Constituency: Charleswood--St. James--Assiniboia--Headingley
Key Issues:
- Income tax
- Income tax returns
- Tax relief
- Canada Revenue Agency
- Taxpayers' Ombudsman
- Benefits for children
Written Questions:
- Q-472 — December 5, 2019 — Mr. Morantz (Charleswood-St.James-Assiniboia-Headingley) — With regard to Section 2.33 of the Fall 2017 Report of the Auditor General of Canada which states in reference to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) that “They gave us wrong information almost 30 per cent of the time”:
- what specific action has CRA taken since the publication of the report to stop the dissemination or wrong information; and
- what are the latest available statistics regarding how often CRA disseminates wrong information?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - Q-2112 — December 10, 2019 — Mr. Morantz (Charleswood-St.James-Assiniboia-Headingley) — With regard to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA):
- what are all of the current 1-800 telephone numbers that Canadians can useto call the CRA;
- for each 1-800 telephone number, which taxpayers are intended to use each telephone number and which specific services are available;
- broken down by month, since January 1, 2018, how many telephone calls have been received by each telephone number; and
- broken down by month, since January 2018, what was the average wait time or time on hold for callers to each telephone number?
The reply was tabled on January 27, 2020. - Q-3232 — February 18, 2020 — Mr. Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley) — With regard to the Canada Revenue Agency and its research report entitled “Tax Gap: A Brief Overview”, which estimated that the tax gap for the 2014 tax year was between $21.8 billion and $26 billion:
- what is the estimated tax gap, broken down by each of the last five years; and
- for each of the last five years, what is the
- federal tax gap estimate before audit,
- percentage of corresponding revenues, broken down by tax gap component?
The reply was tabled on April 11, 2020.
Correspondence:
- Nil for the CRA.
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